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  • #46
    Originally posted by NEC26 View Post
    As well as Nembhard played against Texas he played equally poor against Duke. It was a very poor performance in both halves. Timme also had too many turnovers as well. Thats what cost us the game. The refs ALWAYS give Duke an advantage at the line every game. Its a given.
    While he was far from perfect to claim it was a poor performance is not reflective of his engagement IMO….while he had some errors and missed shots one cannot claim a poor game when your point guard was SECOND leading rebounder, out rebounding your post players….had more the double assists than ANYONE Else in this game….had 4 of the teams 5 steals….
    And held keels to 2-11 shooting 6 points in his 38 minutes of play half of his season average in points

    Yes he had 6 turnovers and had some shots that did not fall but to claim he had a POOR performance is simply ignoring the rest of the game he played and contributed to in a very good college game after the first 8 minutes of play
    Basketball...The Toy Department of Life

    Don't mess wth happy...Coach Few

    Comment


    • #47
      The more I think about this game...the more I am encouraged. I think we win 6 out of 10 times vs them. I may be way off. But I genuinely think that is the case. Limit turnovers, hit 1-2 more threes. Less fouls. Boom.

      Comment


      • #48
        Keys IMO

        For me key was at about the 11 minute mark when Chet picked up second foul….Banchero went on to score 13 points mostly against Perry….
        This dug a hole for us to dig out and expend a lot of energy that manifested in tired legs last 4 minutes of game

        Then when we had lead Chet gave up a defensive rebound for basket and then immediately had turnover on inbounds pass that led to his foul and more points

        Nembhard missed bunny

        Timme missed bunny

        For me those were key points in the game..
        Basketball...The Toy Department of Life

        Don't mess wth happy...Coach Few

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Hoopaholic View Post
          While he was far from perfect to claim it was a poor performance is not reflective of his engagement IMO….while he had some errors and missed shots one cannot claim a poor game when your point guard was SECOND leading rebounder, out rebounding your post players….had more the double assists than ANYONE Else in this game….had 4 of the teams 5 steals….
          And held keels to 2-11 shooting 6 points in his 38 minutes of play half of his season average in points

          Yes he had 6 turnovers and had some shots that did not fall but to claim he had a POOR performance is simply ignoring the rest of the game he played and contributed to in a very good college game after the first 8 minutes of play
          He had some really bad unforced turnovers and couldn't hit anything. 6 turnovers from the guy that leads the team is really poor no matter how you slice it. He played poorly, I would think that a little criticism is allowed here no? He had great games against Texas and UCLA and I think he is a great player but in this game he was not good. Neither was Timme especially in the first half.

          Edit: also Nembhard had 2 crucial turnovers when we had a chance to extend our lead late. They were really bad decisions that you could see coming from a mile away. Rewatch the end of that game. The leader of this team did not make the plays needed to win this game but rather gave it away.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Reborn View Post
            1. Duke shoot 15-25 fould shots/ Gonzaga 7-11. Duke called for only 16 fouls during game and Gonzaga 24. That my friend is reffing. All 3 Gonzaga bigs had 4 fouls on them and each sat out significant minutes in the game.

            2. Holmgren played an outstanding 2nd half and was a huge difference for Zags in 2nd half. He ended with 16 points and 3 blocks all in the 2nd half.

            Duke didn't play much better than Gonzaga down the stretch. They made almost all their points from the foul line accept one layup off Bolton. Duke missed 3 foul shots down the stretch. BUT Gonzaga was unable to do much scoring down the stretch. THAT is true. Nmebhard missed a 4 foot bloater and the front end of a one and one, and turned the ball over on a huge mistake down the stretch. Timme missed a 3 ft floater he almost always makes. If we score those baskets we win the game.

            Go Zags!!!
            Reborn,

            I know you are very astute but I also disagree (no disrespect intended) with you as the refs didn't cost us the game...yes we had more fouls but we also committed so damn many STUPID fouls...Watson, Timme, Chet, Straw...Nembhard...TURNOVERS killed our chances...we outshot and rebounded and had more assists...they had more steals and Timme, Chet, Nembhard didn't make a three...we missed Ft's and layups as did they but our TURNOVERS killed us...lost too many scoring opportunities away, that we needed...Duke missing as many FT's as they did in the 1st half kept us in the game...Also, their freshman played better than our freshman...they were more physical too...When Chet guarded #5 he didn't score...One more thing...The Refs did make several bad calls but mostly evident after the video of the two blocks by their "big guy" that were GOOD blocks...

            We were up by three and Watson was in the low post with great position and Nembhard passed him the ball and Watson couldn't grab it and the ball went out of bounds...Duke came down and scored cutting our lead to one and then they hit a 3 to take the lead - which we tied up...but that IMO was the turning point as their Big had three fouls and maybe Watson could have gotten a fourth...

            I hate that we lost but we truly beat ourselves...

            I believe that if we play them again, we win by double digits...

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Bogozags View Post
              Reborn,

              I know you are very astute but I also disagree (no disrespect intended) with you as the refs didn't cost us the game...yes we had more fouls but we also committed so damn many STUPID fouls...Watson, Timme, Chet, Straw...Nembhard...TURNOVERS killed our chances...we outshot and rebounded and had more assists...they had more steals and Timme, Chet, Nembhard didn't make a three...we missed Ft's and layups as did they but our TURNOVERS killed us...lost too many scoring opportunities away, that we needed...Duke missing as many FT's as they did in the 1st half kept us in the game...Also, their freshman played better than our freshman...they were more physical too...When Chet guarded #5 he didn't score...One more thing...The Refs did make several bad calls but mostly evident after the video of the two blocks by their "big guy" that were GOOD blocks...

              We were up by three and Watson was in the low post with great position and Nembhard passed him the ball and Watson couldn't grab it and the ball went out of bounds...Duke came down and scored cutting our lead to one and then they hit a 3 to take the lead - which we tied up...but that IMO was the turning point as their Big had three fouls and maybe Watson could have gotten a fourth...

              I hate that we lost but we truly beat ourselves...

              I believe that if we play them again, we win by double digits...
              While I don't agree the refs cost us this game those blocks by Williams were not clean and the right call. Just because you get a hand on the ball does not make it a clean block if you went through the shooters body to get there. Which is clearly what happened. Yes he got ball but he also slammed into him as he was going up as well.

              Comment


              • #52
                THE DAY AFTER

                The day after a game when Gonzaga loses is always better for me then writing about the game right after the game. Give Duke credit because they did win, and give Coach K credit because IMO he did out coach Mark Few.

                1. Duke costantly was changing their defenses which I believe kept Gonzaga off balance to some degree on offense.
                2. Duke comes out in a zone at the beginning of the game which I believe really confused Gonzaga. Gonzaga was NOT prepared for that, and for the first time this year Gonzaga did NOT come out and dominate a game at the beginning. AND Duke did. Duke came out from the start and dominated Gonzaga in every area of the game, the way that Gonzaga usually does to other teams. Duke looked more like Gonzaga in the first 10 minutes of the game, scoring a good number of points on fast break baskets. Duke appeared more ready for this battle at the beginning than Gonzaga did. At the beginning of this game, to me Gonzaga kind of looked like they did when they Lost to Baylor in the hampionship game last year. Does coaching have something to do with that?
                3. Gonzaga's turnovers really hurt them. And a fair number of those were just simply rediculous. I'm thinking about 2 full court passes that went directly to a Duke player who WAS back defending the full court pass. I'm thinking of the time, late in the game when gonzaga needs to take care of the ball, Holmgren gturns the ball over on an inbounds pass to a Duke player that Holmgren never saw. That led to a Duke basket. And Nembhard turnover very latge in the game when he looked like he simply handed it to a Duke player which also led to an easy basket for Duke.I thin I saw tht Duke scored 24 points off turnovers and Gonzaga scored 2.
                4. Duke scored more points going down the backstretch and heading for home. Yes, they did score their points at the foul line, but they were attacking the basket with hard drives and refs often reward players who drive hard to the basket. Timme got a breat when he attacked the basket with powere trying to dunk over Williams (Duke's center). Williams clearly blocked the shot but Timme was rewarded by attacking with power. Gonzaga, on the other hand, missed two easy shots down the backstretch. One by Nembard on a 4 foot floater, and one by Timme on a 3 foot floater. those were both shots that both of them usually make at least 75% of the time. And Nembhard misses the front end of a one and one which really us the Zags. In the end, Gonzage did not show the confidence to put this one away.
                5. One could argue that the reason that Duke shot more foul shots, by a big margin, than Gonzaga was because they played better defense in this game. The way this game was called by the refs was going to favor a team that hand-checked and body-checked the whole game when Gonzaga was playing defense as if the refs were calling a game where you could not hand or body check. Gonzaga may have made more stupid fouls, like Timme's 4th one. And a couple that Holmgren made the first half.
                6. Not much has been said about bench play, but Duke's bench may have been the deciding factor in this game. Their bench outscored ours 11-7. And that my friends was the difference in the game. Few has been criticized for the way he uses his bench players, particularly Hickman and Sallis. I believe the criticism is fair.

                Go Zags!!!
                Go Zags!!! The Best Is Yet To Come!!!

                Comment


                • #53
                  Bornie, you definitely are more astute the morning after. Agree 100%.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    This game wasn’t about bad calls costing us the win. To me it came down to the sheer physicality of the Duke players, especially the guards. On defense Moore and Keels were up in our guards bodies the entire night. You could certainly say a lot of that action was fouls, but the refs made it clear they weren’t going to call that early on, and we needed to adjust. Keels in particularly used his strength to blow up our hand off action, and forced our offense to be remarkably one dimensional (high pick and roll) down the stretch. My guess is we are still early in the year, lots of new bodies, and don’t have as deep a playbook as we usually do…that hurt us. On our defensive end it was the same story to me. The Duke guards got hip on hip and outmuscled our guys to the rim time and time again, either getting buckets, or putting fouls on our bigs and Strawther. Truth is at this point in their careers, Williams is a better defensive anchor than Chet. For the most part Williams was able to slow/stop our interior efforts (but he picked up 4 fouls in the process) while Chet had moments, but got muscled around by John’s, Banchero and Williams (Keels too).

                    I think the entire game came down to Duke’s physicality. We turned the ball over in large part due to that pressure (again…clearly COULD be called tighter…but it wasn’t. And the refs were pretty consistent in letting that body to body stuff go with one crazy exception on Keels late in the game for some reason) and on defense, Duke put us in a ton of tough positions through that same physicality.

                    I don’t mind that loss one bit. Even while all of that was happening, we were a BANKED 3 pointer away (Joey Baker…seriously). If we just come up with a bucket here or there down the stretch, or Bolton gets one stop on Roach (by the way, this is where Banchero is so tough. Pulled Chet out of the paint and leaves Bolton on an island) and we probably win that game. I think it helps us develop.

                    We need KP, BG and HS (at least 2/3) to develop quickly.
                    john montana
                    http://carponthefly.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by demian View Post
                      That was a helluva game. Zags looked like a physically weak team the first approx 15 minutes. Then somehow battled their asses off to get into the game by halftime. The first 15 minutes of the second half was legit high level ball from both teams. Zags looked not so good the last 4 minutes of the game tho. Duke made the plays in crunch time. Zags kinda struggled in crunch time. Fun game tho. entertaining from a purely spectators point of view. the coaches and players all improved exponentially tonight in varieties of ways when we were truly challenged and facing adversity at multiple times. We lost but I was actually very impressed about the fighting spirit and willingness to dig in and battle. We easily could have gotten embarrassed in that first half. Bolton kept us barely afloat, till others could settle in. Watson was nice tonight. Kid can play for sure. He was good. Strawther is legit. Hickmans up and under finish was sweet. We have a fighters spirit, that’s obvious now, we have tons of skill, we have guys who will dig in and battle. We have the ingredients.
                      Great post, Demian. One of the best in this thread. You are such a good writer, and can say things in a much shorter and concise way then i can, Keep writing and contributing more to this Board (forum).

                      Go Zags!!!
                      Go Zags!!! The Best Is Yet To Come!!!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Zagceo View Post
                        Duke 23 points off turnovers Zags 2.

                        THIS ^^^
                        When I played and when I coached, the first thing I did after a game, was to
                        look in the mirror, and ask myself if there were a few things I could have done better, or my team
                        Could have done better to flip a ONE POSSESSION GAME in my favor.
                        Mark and his staff will do that after this one… They always do… even after
                        Wins. In a one possession game, there are many things that could have been better.
                        Chet and Andrew go 0-6 from 3, all but one were good looks. 17 TO’s vs. 8 is
                        A killer… too many empty possessions. First half foul trouble for Chet and Anton
                        Certainly hurt GU.
                        But when you dive deep into a one possession game against a great opponent like
                        Duke, there are usually a couple of eye opening stats that stand out. For me,
                        Wendell Moore was great, but Mark Williams was the difference maker.
                        I knew he was a force, but in this game, He was 8-9 from the floor, 9 rebounds,
                        2 steals, 5 blocks. He was better than Advertised, at least in this game.

                        On the other hand, the Zags did some really good things…
                        42-31 on the boards against a talented Duke front line is terrific.
                        Duke was +7 RPG before last night.
                        22 assists on 34 made buckets, again, outstanding. Strawther
                        Showed us that he is a baller… awesome job, in his hometown, against
                        Two really good teams… Ju had 32 & 19 against UCLA & DUKE… just
                        A great job against that caliber of competition for a young player.

                        This Zag team will be fine. A lot to like… and GU will be a tough out in March.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by john montana View Post
                          This game wasn’t about bad calls costing us the win. To me it came down to the sheer physicality of the Duke players, especially the guards. On defense Moore and Keels were up in our guards bodies the entire night. You could certainly say a lot of that action was fouls, but the refs made it clear they weren’t going to call that early on, and we needed to adjust. Keels in particularly used his strength to blow up our hand off action, and forced our offense to be remarkably one dimensional (high pick and roll) down the stretch. My guess is we are still early in the year, lots of new bodies, and don’t have as deep a playbook as we usually do…that hurt us. On our defensive end it was the same story to me. The Duke guards got hip on hip and outmuscled our guys to the rim time and time again, either getting buckets, or putting fouls on our bigs and Strawther. Truth is at this point in their careers, Williams is a better defensive anchor than Chet. For the most part Williams was able to slow/stop our interior efforts (but he picked up 4 fouls in the process) while Chet had moments, but got muscled around by John’s, Banchero and Williams (Keels too).

                          I think the entire game came down to Duke’s physicality. We turned the ball over in large part due to that pressure (again…clearly COULD be called tighter…but it wasn’t. And the refs were pretty consistent in letting that body to body stuff go with one crazy exception on Keels late in the game for some reason) and on defense, Duke put us in a ton of tough positions through that same physicality.

                          I don’t mind that loss one bit. Even while all of that was happening, we were a BANKED 3 pointer away (Joey Baker…seriously). If we just come up with a bucket here or there down the stretch, or Bolton gets one stop on Roach (by the way, this is where Banchero is so tough. Pulled Chet out of the paint and leaves Bolton on an island) and we probably win that game. I think it helps us develop.

                          We need KP, BG and HS (at least 2/3) to develop quickly.
                          This post is spot on. Duke often puts extreme pressure on the guards to take a team out of its offensive rhythm. The refs were not calling it tight and it affected us. I did not think there were any particularly lopsided calls in that game however.
                          I would love to see our other guards get some run and critical experience against lighter competition as Nembhard looked tired at the end of that game and could have used some help. Even 4 minutes of rest would help.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by NEC26 View Post
                            This post is spot on. Duke often puts extreme pressure on the guards to take a team out of its offensive rhythm. The refs were not calling it tight and it affected us. I did not think they were any particularly lopsided calls in that game however.
                            I would love to see our other guards get some run against lighter competition as Nembhard looked tired at the end of that game and could have used some help. Even 4 minutes of rest would help.
                            I agree too, and hence call it Baylor 2.0. We have some wonderful players, smart, lithe, unselfish, skilled. But no Uber athlete on the order of Suggs, Clark, Rui, the Bonus. Duke has at least one.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Reborn, when did Duke play a zone? I saw man to man all night. I know duke has occasionally played a 2/3 since K worked with Boeheim on the Olympic team, but I didn’t see it last night. Just straight, high pressure man to man.

                              Also worth noting to me…while Duke played tight, body on body physical defense I didn’t think it was anything like the hack job Texas Tech did to us a few years ago. That TT defense was all “swing at their arms” and this was “body them off the ball.” The former to me should be an automatic foul call, the latter is more of a “keep it consistent” and it is what it is in my view.
                              john montana
                              http://carponthefly.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by john montana View Post
                                Reborn, when did Duke play a zone? I saw man to man all night. I know duke has occasionally played a 2/3 since K worked with Boeheim on the Olympic team, but I didn’t see it last night. Just straight, high pressure man to man.

                                Also worth noting to me…while Duke played tight, body on body physical defense I didn’t think it was anything like the hack job Texas Tech did to us a few years ago. That TT defense was all “swing at their arms” and this was “body them off the ball.” The former to me should be an automatic foul call, the latter is more of a “keep it consistent” and it is what it is in my view.
                                Nope, as noxious as K is, he’s not as despicable as the good old boy Beard.

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