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  • #61
    Costly game. Banchero now odds on to win both best player and to be top pick, displacing two Zags.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by john montana View Post
      Reborn, when did Duke play a zone? I saw man to man all night. I know duke has occasionally played a 2/3 since K worked with Boeheim on the Olympic team, but I didn’t see it last night. Just straight, high pressure man to man.

      Also worth noting to me…while Duke played tight, body on body physical defense I didn’t think it was anything like the hack job Texas Tech did to us a few years ago. That TT defense was all “swing at their arms” and this was “body them off the ball.” The former to me should be an automatic foul call, the latter is more of a “keep it consistent” and it is what it is in my view.
      They never played a traditional 2-3 zone, yet they certainly sagged their guys underneath. A sorta matchup zone to drop and help in the post.

      Timme didn't do nearly as good of job passing this game when they collapsed. Neither did Chet. Both were a bit sticky with the ball.

      However, I thought Anton did some wonderful things recognizing the defense and finding some holes. When they guarded him underneath, he found guys, also making plays defensively to get us up 4 pts at one point.

      Then we subbed Timme for Anton...and honestly...the rest was history. back to back TO's on Timme, and some major defensive lapses. It killed our momentum.

      I understand going with the starter late, yet Anton was having a 2nd half, and really the catalyst on turning the tide. We kept getting steals, even though we missed the passes often.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by jazzdelmar View Post
        Costly game. Banchero now odds on to win both best player and to be top pick, displacing two Zags.
        Long ways to go until March, jazz.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by TexasZagFan View Post
          Long ways to go until March, jazz.
          Maybe, but I fear the aircraft carrier has been turned.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Therunner View Post
            They never played a traditional 2-3 zone, yet they certainly sagged their guys underneath. A sorta matchup zone to drop and help in the post.

            Timme didn't do nearly as good of job passing this game when they collapsed. Neither did Chet. Both were a bit sticky with the ball.

            However, I thought Anton did some wonderful things recognizing the defense and finding some holes. When they guarded him underneath, he found guys, also making plays defensively to get us up 4 pts at one point.

            Then we subbed Timme for Anton...and honestly...the rest was history. back to back TO's on Timme, and some major defensive lapses. It killed our momentum.

            I understand going with the starter late, yet Anton was having a 2nd half, and really the catalyst on turning the tide. We kept getting steals, even though we missed the passes often.
            It’s really tough to allow Tims to sit in that situation, but you have a point.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by jazzdelmar View Post
              Game might’ve cost Tims the POY, lots of national eyeballs even at that hour. Good chance he returns to try again. Banchero far outperforms Holmgren, but little chance Chet returns. Even with a wealth of talent, Few still refuses to develop bench beyond 6th or 7th man and it always bites him. Bolton plays with great confidence. Would like to see him run the point a bit more. Gotta say, Watty played well, should have had more PT. The game looks close on paper but it was really Duke’s to lose. Seventeen TOs are hard to overcome, so many just dumb plays like two throw aheads for no reason.
              He is the most frustrating player. He has streaks of greatness followed by terrible decisions or constantly being out of position. Against Duke though he played good. If he can play consistent he is going to be a difference maker. He played a better game than Drew. I would have liked to see more Perry too. Get him some experience. Not fair to the kids to not get playing time and then throw them into games in March. I felt like Collins was done a disservice by his lack of playing time in the normal season and then all of the sudden in March he is the go to guy and the team practically falls apart when he runs into foul trouble. Too many good players and not enough playing time.
              Last edited by jayray; 11-27-2021, 09:37 AM. Reason: spelling

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              • #67
                Originally posted by jayray View Post
                He is the most frustrating player. He has streaks of greatness followed by terrible decisions or constantly being out of position. Against Duke though he played great. If he can play consistent he is going to be a difference maker. He played a better game than Drew. I would have liked to see more Perry too. Get him some experience. Not fair to the kids to not enough playing time and then throw them into games in March. I felt like Collins was done a disservice by his lack of playing time in the normal season and then all of the sudden in March he is the go to guy and the team practically falls apart when he runs into fall trouble. Too many good players and not enough playing time.
                Don’t get me started on Zbo.

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                • #68
                  Perfect storm for Duke.

                  I'm not making excuses or blaming the Refs. Duke came out strong and was the better team that day. This was a true March madness situation playing a big game following the UCLA win. It seems beating UCLA makes the next game more challenging. Fortunately a loss doesn't end your season in November.

                  Duke plays Gonzaga following several cupcakes. I'm sure this game was very important to coach K and the game plan has been worked on for weeks. They were well prepared, rested and ready. Banchero is the real deal. The only thing that slowed him was the pace of the game and cramps. Gonzaga has no one to stop him when he is on like last night. They need to win all the other aspects of the game. Less turnovers, less fouls and play at the Gonzaga pace. Most teams wilt after 3 periods at that pace.

                  Gonzaga plays UCLA with only 2 days to prepare for Duke. Zags starters play heavy minutes against UCLA and it showed down the stretch. Timme seemed gassed and was beat down the court numerous times. I believe this is why he and others had the dumb reach in fouls. Moving hands instead of feet. This is not normal so I see it not being a problem.

                  Nembard had a tough game. He has the toughest position and has played almost every minute in big games. I believe he was also tired and thats when simple tasks become more difficult leading to turnovers. Duke was also jumping those passing lanes showing they were prepared. He was hounded relentlessly and has been up to the task. We are lucky to have him. He could use more help and maybe a different look offensively from Gonzaga at times to give him a break. Hickman may be up to this by march. It takes time to all these new players up to speed on added looks.

                  Julian has had a great run these last few games. He should be proud of his efforts. I think he will continue to get better on D and may be our best all around player by the end of the season.

                  Coack K took a brilliant time out just prior to a TV time out to stop the run Gonzaga was on. He's a brilliant coach who has had the luxury of having the best talent on the floor over the years. It still takes coaching to bring the talent together but athletic ability helps make up for mistakes. They have a true rim protector and it showed changing how Gonzaga attacked. We needed to get him in foul trouble earlier. Less ball fakes and attack his body. To many fakes allow the other players to make the defensive play.

                  Timme will have a tougher time this season if the opposing team has a physical inside presence. Teams have seen if you get to him early with a more physical player he has a tough time making those 3-4 moves for the shot. I feel he needs to be quicker on his decision to shoot or pass it out. When he had the lane to drive he was unstoppable. Until the team shoots the 3 ball more consistently he will have to face more doubles and handsy guards slipping in for the steel. Timme gets away with a lot of questionable traveling and in March they will call them.

                  Chet's shot will start falling from 3 and it will make Timme's life easier. I would like to see Chet play the top of the key more often. He has a great mid range shot, is able to dribble drive and is an awsome passer. He's a true freshman and the quicker more mature players really bothered him. The turnover on the inbound was a true freshman mistake and I bet we don't see that again. Turnover and a foul really stopped the run we were on.

                  All in all the boys played ok. Never giving up and was in it till the end. I say these teams would split the best of ten with Duke having the advantage on 50-50 calls. I was disappointed with a loss but wasn't upset with it.

                  Go Zags!!!

                  Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Excellent post! You and Bornie are "levels on the level!" I still would like to see tighter 3-point defense...this is a harp on Few for a couple decades now...he's just fine with 8 feet gaps around the arc. If Keals is on last night as he normally is...we lose by twelve. Conversely, all of our threes were contested. Defense wins games...same old same old. Cannot wait for Chet's evolution...saw it last night...that had to give him mounds of confidence. Strawther and Bolton...ready for bear as they say. They both can shoot well under pressure. Nembhart will bounce and maybe needs to switch with Bolton or someone else at the point to change things up when the handles are failing him. He dribbles unusually high for point...caused him issues against Baylor who was both bodied up and and "handsy" with him the entire tilt. Again, great post, WL!

                    Originally posted by White lightning View Post
                    Perfect storm for Duke.

                    I'm not making excuses or blaming the Refs. Duke came out strong and was the better team that day. This was a true March madness situation playing a big game following the UCLA win. It seems beating UCLA makes the next game more challenging. Fortunately a loss doesn't end your season in November.

                    Duke plays Gonzaga following several cupcakes. I'm sure this game was very important to coach K and the game plan has been worked on for weeks. They were well prepared, rested and ready. Banchero is the real deal. The only thing that slowed him was the pace of the game and cramps. Gonzaga has no one to stop him when he is on like last night. They need to win all the other aspects of the game. Less turnovers, less fouls and play at the Gonzaga pace. Most teams wilt after 3 periods at that pace.

                    Gonzaga plays UCLA with only 2 days to prepare for Duke. Zags starters play heavy minutes against UCLA and it showed down the stretch. Timme seemed gassed and was beat down the court numerous times. I believe this is why he and others had the dumb reach in fouls. Moving hands instead of feet. This is not normal so I see it not being a problem.

                    Nembard had a tough game. He has the toughest position and has played almost every minute in big games. I believe he was also tired and thats when simple tasks become more difficult leading to turnovers. Duke was also jumping those passing lanes showing they were prepared. He was hounded relentlessly and has been up to the task. We are lucky to have him. He could use more help and maybe a different look offensively from Gonzaga at times to give him a break. Hickman may be up to this by march. It takes time to all these new players up to speed on added looks.

                    Julian has had a great run these last few games. He should be proud of his efforts. I think he will continue to get better on D and may be our best all around player by the end of the season.

                    Coack K took a brilliant time out just prior to a TV time out to stop the run Gonzaga was on. He's a brilliant coach who has had the luxury of having the best talent on the floor over the years. It still takes coaching to bring the talent together but athletic ability helps make up for mistakes. They have a true rim protector and it showed changing how Gonzaga attacked. We needed to get him in foul trouble earlier. Less ball fakes and attack his body. To many fakes allow the other players to make the defensive play.

                    Timme will have a tougher time this season if the opposing team has a physical inside presence. Teams have seen if you get to him early with a more physical player he has a tough time making those 3-4 moves for the shot. I feel he needs to be quicker on his decision to shoot or pass it out. When he had the lane to drive he was unstoppable. Until the team shoots the 3 ball more consistently he will have to face more doubles and handsy guards slipping in for the steel. Timme gets away with a lot of questionable traveling and in March they will call them.

                    Chet's shot will start falling from 3 and it will make Timme's life easier. I would like to see Chet play the top of the key more often. He has a great mid range shot, is able to dribble drive and is an awsome passer. He's a true freshman and the quicker more mature players really bothered him. The turnover on the inbound was a true freshman mistake and I bet we don't see that again. Turnover and a foul really stopped the run we were on.

                    All in all the boys played ok. Never giving up and was in it till the end. I say these teams would split the best of ten with Duke having the advantage on 50-50 calls. I was disappointed with a loss but wasn't upset with it.

                    Go Zags!!!

                    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
                    sigpicmontanazag88
                    P....A....TIENCE!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Baylor laid out a nice blueprint on how to beat the Zags. Coach K is no dumny.

                      Timne surely didn’t help his NBA draft prospects. And Nemhard, just wow with the turnovers and forcing shots.

                      I thought the momentum was with Zags for a short time while up by 4—and then came the horribly bad inbounds pass by Chet that effectively killed any momentum. The game was pretty much over after that error.
                      "The best players will play. That's the way it will always be." Larry Bird

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                      • #71
                        Best observation, Jayray. If Perry is given time to develop, he and Watson will be absolutely shut folks down. Perry is still learning where to be on defense - screens, rolls, switches and back-cuts. Lookout when he gets there. Great take on the rotation issue effecting development of young potential. I agree...let 'em develop early and often.

                        On a side note, I now wish that Arizona game was still a reality. We need another high-pressure game with the lights on these young players. In fact, we need 5 more high-pressure games - Purdue, Baylor, Houston....just having fun with the thought.

                        Originally posted by jayray View Post
                        He is the most frustrating player. He has streaks of greatness followed by terrible decisions or constantly being out of position. Against Duke though he played good. If he can play consistent he is going to be a difference maker. He played a better game than Drew. I would have liked to see more Perry too. Get him some experience. Not fair to the kids to not get playing time and then throw them into games in March. I felt like Collins was done a disservice by his lack of playing time in the normal season and then all of the sudden in March he is the go to guy and the team practically falls apart when he runs into foul trouble. Too many good players and not enough playing time.
                        sigpicmontanazag88
                        P....A....TIENCE!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Great thread, and am learning a lot from the various posters' perspectives. And it's also keeping me from chewing my fingernails during Michigan/OSU (Go Blue)

                          One thought as I reflect on what a number of you are saying about our guards getting bodied - our two national championship game teams had big guards who could back guys down (Nigel and Jalen). Do we have that guy this year?
                          Your children have been placed in the custody of...Carl's Jr.

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                          • #73
                            Duke played great. Our error was we always play fast, but we made the mistake of trying to play faster.

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                            • #74
                              Someone closed the thread about positives so I am going to stick my comments here.

                              The observations I see to build off this game are the following:
                              1. Continue with Strawther asserting himself and work on him not committing cheap fouls. He has a tendency to go after a ball a little late which is totally unnecessary. Strawther had five fouls last night. He should only be getting 3.
                              2. Play Hickman more. I think in March we will need him and he may be making some big shots. Substitute Hickman for Nembhard so he can rest 10 minutes.
                              3. I think Perry needs to play more. He is athletic and can guard elite players with athleticism. This will be helpful when Timme has a bad game and gets himself in foul trouble. I also think Perry can be a force on defense with blocks and rebounding. The one game where he committed five fouls in five minutes was a fluke performance.
                              4. Try to work through the kinks in Watson’s game. How can he avoid foul trouble? That one play where he got Williams to foul him in the late second half is what we need more of.
                              5. I want to see some extended time played with this lineup: Holmgren, Strawther, Bolton, Hickman, and Nembhard. This can be a great lineup for when we need key shots.
                              6. Harris - get him back during conference play for 3 point shooting and his athleticism. I think Harris could defend either Moore or Kiels from last night.
                              7. Holmgren - need him to be more consistent with his outside shot. He should not be passing up open looks in the future.
                              8. Sallis - figure out how to have him take the next step up. Can he improve his outside shooting during the season?
                              9. Gregg - Few obviously didn’t like the matchup between Gregg and Duke players. So does that mean Gregg needs to be more of an outside shooting specialist? Maybe get him more time this season doing that.
                              10. Turnovers and fouling are all correctable. Watch this game tape many times to prepare for the next athletic, Physical team.

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                              • #75
                                17 turnovers last night. 2d highest in loosing effort in last 5 years, only Villanova in 17-18 forced more at 19.

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