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  • #31
    Originally posted by strikenowhere View Post
    When I think of toughness and the Zags, I inevitably go back to the 2016-17 S16 game against West Virginia. THAT was a tough team that ate nails for breakfast. Not seeing that with this team, currently.
    Here’s the thing… we could have really easily lost that game. They miss 2 FTs with a minute left and a 1 point lead. If we lose that game you’re probably not saying it’s a tough team. Just one of those things where the margins are super small and sometimes “toughness” is just variance.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by zagfan08 View Post
      Here’s the thing… we could have really easily lost that game. They miss 2 FTs with a minute left and a 1 point lead. If we lose that game you’re probably not saying it’s a tough team. Just one of those things where the margins are super small and sometimes “toughness” is just variance.
      The difference being the boys DIDN'T lose the game. They found a way to win in a very difficult situation. This year's team would have wilted under the "Press Virginia" defense.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by zagfan08 View Post
        Here’s the thing… we could have really easily lost that game. They miss 2 FTs with a minute left and a 1 point lead. If we lose that game you’re probably not saying it’s a tough team. Just one of those things where the margins are super small and sometimes “toughness” is just variance.
        Bigtime.

        And if the Zags hit 75-80 percent of their free throws against Bama and pull out the win ... they suddenly aren't as "soft" as folks are saying. Funny thing about losses. While they aren't fun (and usually learning experiences) for the guys/staff ... they seem to be the "woe is me" death knell for some experts (aka "fans")
        sigpic
        “To be continued …”. Fr Tony Lehman, SJ
        ——-
        List of All Americans (1st Team Top 5) and Academic All Americans (1st Team Top 5) in the same season since '00:
        Shane Battier, Dan Dickau, Omeka Okafor, DJ Augustin, Kelly Olynyk, Nigel Williams-Goss, Corey Kispert.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by strikenowhere View Post
          When I think of toughness and the Zags, I inevitably go back to the 2016-17 S16 game against West Virginia. THAT was a tough team that ate nails for breakfast. Not seeing that with this team, currently.
          nwg was as tough as they come, he is/was just missing nba athleticism. not sure nembhard has the necessary "toughness" to carry the zags, but it could simply be a talent issue and there's nothing wrong with that or anything you can do about it. chet holmgren is tough...he just doesn't have the body to take advantage of it.

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          • #35
            Essentially, the two losses this year came down ultimately to the last four or five minutes. We were beating Duke, but did not finish the game strongly.

            We fought back against Alabama and were within 4 points with about five minutes left in the game, and again could not finish it.

            Against tough teams where we don't match well in either style of personnel or both, we need to find a way to win in crunch time. The 2017 team was exemplary at that, and last year's team exhibited that toughness as well. This year's team hasn't as yet.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by GoZags View Post
              Bigtime.

              And if the Zags hit 75-80 percent of their free throws against Bama and pull out the win ... they suddenly aren't as "soft" as folks are saying. Funny thing about losses. While they aren't fun (and usually learning experiences) for the guys/staff ... they seem to be the "woe is me" death knell for some experts (aka "fans")
              Or if Alabama was 7-13 from 3 in the first half instead of 10-13. High variance all around. Not an issue of “toughness” (although it is nice to run into a little adversity for the first time in awhile and see how people respond. It’s also nice that adversity for this program is two close losses to top 10 teams with an underwhelming trap game in between.)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by zagfan08 View Post
                Or if Alabama was 7-13 from 3 in the first half instead of 10-13. High variance all around. Not an issue of “toughness” (although it is nice to run into a little adversity for the first time in awhile and see how people respond. It’s also nice that adversity for this program is two close losses to top 10 teams with an underwhelming trap game in between.)
                If you can’t look at our losses and who they came against, and wonder about the toughness of the program or at least how we handle intense ball pressure or hard nosed defensive and athletic teams with grown men bodies, not sure can help.

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                • #38
                  There are a lot of advantages to being in the WCC.......but being in a rock fight twice a week isn't one of them....

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by zagsfanforlife View Post
                    If you can’t look at our losses and who they came against, and wonder about the toughness of the program or at least how we handle intense ball pressure or hard nosed defensive and athletic teams with grown men bodies, not sure can help.
                    Definitely don’t need your help, thanks though.

                    Beating West Virginia last year after Suggs got hurt wasn’t a sign of a tough team I guess because Baylor was one of the best college basketball teams of the last 20 years and beat us badly coming off an emotional high 42 hours earlier.

                    We should have won the Alabama game and I think probably do 7 times out of 10. I have concerns about if the 2021-22 team is going to shoot the ball well enough to win a title. Not concerned if we are tough or not, however you want to define that. My concern is that Timme might not be quite good enough to play at an all-American level against quality athletic defenders but that’s not because he isn’t a tough player. It’s nice having a senior PG but we might lose to teams that have more talented backcourts and more individual shot making.

                    You can pick like 6 losses over 4 years, not count any close wins, and say we aren’t a tough program. Pretty sure you can do that with just about everybody.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by zagfan08 View Post
                      Definitely don’t need your help, thanks though.

                      Beating West Virginia last year after Suggs got hurt wasn’t a sign of a tough team I guess because Baylor was one of the best college basketball teams of the last 20 years and beat us badly coming off an emotional high 42 hours earlier.

                      We should have won the Alabama game and I think probably do 7 times out of 10. I have concerns about if the 2021-22 team is going to shoot the ball well enough to win a title. Not concerned if we are tough or not, however you want to define that. My concern is that Timme might not be quite good enough to play at an all-American level against quality athletic defenders but that’s not because he isn’t a tough player. It’s nice having a senior PG but we might lose to teams that have more talented backcourts and more individual shot making.

                      You can pick like 6 losses over 4 years, not count any close wins, and say we aren’t a tough program. Pretty sure you can do that with just about everybody.
                      agreed...is duke soft because they collapsed down the stretch against ohio state and couldn't score in the last 4+ minutes?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by GoZags View Post
                        Bigtime.

                        And if the Zags hit 75-80 percent of their free throws against Bama and pull out the win ... they suddenly aren't as "soft" as folks are saying. Funny thing about losses. While they aren't fun (and usually learning experiences) for the guys/staff ... they seem to be the "woe is me" death knell for some experts (aka "fans")
                        So true!

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by zagfan08 View Post
                          Definitely don’t need your help, thanks though.

                          Beating West Virginia last year after Suggs got hurt wasn’t a sign of a tough team I guess because Baylor was one of the best college basketball teams of the last 20 years and beat us badly coming off an emotional high 42 hours earlier.

                          We should have won the Alabama game and I think probably do 7 times out of 10. I have concerns about if the 2021-22 team is going to shoot the ball well enough to win a title. Not concerned if we are tough or not, however you want to define that. My concern is that Timme might not be quite good enough to play at an all-American level against quality athletic defenders but that’s not because he isn’t a tough player. It’s nice having a senior PG but we might lose to teams that have more talented backcourts and more individual shot making.

                          You can pick like 6 losses over 4 years, not count any close wins, and say we aren’t a tough program. Pretty sure you can do that with just about everybody.
                          I guess diff basketball minds look at things differently. You may need my help though. But instead, you also can go watch the tapes of those games i mentioned. Lots of guards turning the ball over when pressure on the ball gets intense, lots of shots getting blocked, guards not getting where they want to go and usually can go, pick and roll being disrupted by guards fighting over the screens more than normal... But carry on bud

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by zagsfanforlife View Post
                            If you can’t look at our losses and who they came against, and wonder about the toughness of the program or at least how we handle intense ball pressure or hard nosed defensive and athletic teams with grown men bodies, not sure can help.
                            And if you cant look at the high quality wins against top notched tough teams over the last 10 years than I cant help you see how the program has grown in toughness

                            And I would suggest other “tough” programs have some stinker games do they suddenly become “non tough”………
                            Basketball...The Toy Department of Life

                            Don't mess wth happy...Coach Few

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                            • #44
                              There are a few things they need to improve if they want another deep tournament run, but questioning their toughness is always a speculative exercise.
                              Given the subjective nature of speculation and the biases of the OP, it's a pointless exercise.

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                              Beat everyone, and enjoy drinking from a chalice filled with their salty tears.
                              Surfmonkey89

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                              • #45
                                I don't even know what 'tough' means. What are we even talking about when we say tough?
                                'I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.'
                                - Gandalf the Grey

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