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  • Originally posted by Zagceo View Post
    Fauci should have been honest and just told the public....use a bandana....make a mask from cloth we need to preserve N95 type masks along with Surgical masks for healthcare workers.

    what would have been wrong with that advice?
    Nothing wrong with that advice, except, as we know now and did not know in February/March, bandanas don't work very well as a mask.

    I'm not against masks I'm pointing out a strange logic Fauci used.
    I have no idea, why Fauci made those statements in February/March, which look pretty silly given what we know today.

    However, why are we talking about statements made in February/March when so much more knowledge is available today?

    ZagDad

    Comment


    • The following, in case anyone is curious what was said at the time.

      Update: On Friday, April 3, President Trump announced that the CDC now recommends Americans wear a "basic cloth or fabric mask" in public. The following was published on March 8.

      When it comes to preventing coronavirus, public health officials have been clear: Healthy people do not need to wear a face mask to protect themselves from COVID-19.

      How U.S. hospitals are preparing, and what leading health officials say about coronavirus
      "There's no reason to be walking around with a mask," infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci told 60 Minutes.

      While masks may block some droplets, Fauci said, they do not provide the level of protection people think they do. Wearing a mask may also have unintended consequences: People who wear masks tend to touch their face more often to adjust them, which can spread germs from their hands.

      But there is another risk to healthy people buying disposable masks as a precaution. The price of face masks is surging, and Prestige Ameritech, the nation's largest surgical mask manufacturer, is now struggling to keep up with the increased demand.

      "It could lead to a shortage of masks for the people who really need it," Fauci said.

      Face masks are vital for health care providers and for patients with confirmed or suspected COVID-19.

      For healthy people, both the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommend they wear masks only when taking care of those who are sick or suspected of having the virus.

      For those who do need to wear a mask, the WHO emphasizes the proper way of wearing one: put the mask on with clean hands; remove it from behind without touching the front; wash hands immediately after removing it; dispose of it properly; and never reuse a single-use mask.
      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/prevent...es-2020-03-08/

      To me, it seems Fauci was making a calculated risk to protect medical workers. I'm trying to remember when it became widely believed that respiritory droplets were the primary mode of transmission. I found this from the WHO, published on March 29. And then you see the updated guidance from the CDC on April 3rd. So, possibly Fauci's original comments came before there was enough evidence to suggest that blocking respiritory droplets could be nearly the whole ballgame.

      In the end, I'm with ZagDad84. There are enough yahoos on my Facebook feed, today, still trying to argue about mask ordinances and whatever else they can.

      If ZagCEO thinks masks are a good idea, fine.

      I don't expect scientists to be infallible or perfect. With Fauci, I believe the nation has a credible resource who has our best interests at heart ... and comes from a Jesuit education to boot.
      Last edited by sonuvazag; 08-13-2020, 01:37 PM.
      Agent provocateur

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ZagDad84 View Post
        Nothing wrong with that advice, except, as we know now and did not know in February/March, bandanas don't work very well as a mask.



        I have no idea, why Fauci made those statements in February/March, which look pretty silly given what we know today.

        However, why are we talking about statements made in February/March when so much more knowledge is available today?

        ZagDad
        As they say in court, it goes to credibility.

        Why isn’t Fauci talking about all the health related disasters caused by the shutdowns.

        Did any of you know that 25% of 18-24 go’s have seriously contemplated suicide during the lockdowns? Alcohol and drug abuse are taking lives. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/...mm6932a1-H.pdf

        Comment


        • Markburn, hard to know what to make of that report because of huge reporting bias. Of the 9,800 individuals that they requested info from, only 54% responded. So individuals who had experienced an adverse event may have been more likely to respond than someone who read the questionnaire and felt it didn't apply to them and threw it out. Also i don't see them report a control period prior to covid to know if those numbers are an increase or decrease from pre-covid times.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tummydoc View Post
            Markburn, hard to know what to make of that report because of huge reporting bias. Of the 9,800 individuals that they requested info from, only 54% responded. So individuals who had experienced an adverse event may have been more likely to respond than someone who read the questionnaire and felt it didn't apply to them and threw it out. Also i don't see them report a control period prior to covid to know if those numbers are an increase or decrease from pre-covid times.
            Hey gastro guy.

            Pretty frustrating to post here because of the overwhelming bias. Back a couple months ago there were more diverse views but at this point only one aspect of the story is being discussed. Any news that doesn’t match the narrative is immediately dismissed.

            Your response is a case in point. Many times on this and other threads the CDC has been touted as an authority that we should not question. Yet, when that authority strays from the script their methods are immediately questioned.

            I stopped commenting for a couple months. Time to do it again.

            By the way, the CDC compared percentages of mental health issues from the same time period last year. The elevated risk is a comparison of this year over last.
            Last edited by Markburn1; 08-14-2020, 06:59 AM.

            Comment


            • Mark... got your six!

              The thing about being lectured to is, like my kids, you don’t like it... When you can read into the post a tone that none of us like to be spoken to in ... it suddenly becomes... blah, blah, blah.

              Folks... we get that the Virus is a really real concern. We have lived it for 6 months. What Mark and I have tried to bring to the discussion is the people being affected not by the virus but because of the virus... and thoughs lives are also concerning.

              Years ago we had a workshop for our employees on how to deal with very upset customers... we all have them. The workshop was put on by a couple of Spokane Police Officers... two great impressive people. One was a GU grad. The one thing that stuck with me was that very upset people can not hear a thing you are saying until you can calm them. I’m seeing a little of that on this post.

              Can we cool the lectures and be a little more civil...

              Go Zags!!

              Comment


              • Sorry fellas, i wasn't giving a lecture (at least that wasn't the intent). I review studies for publication, and these are the questions i would have asked the authors.

                Comment


                • Markburn1,

                  I have spent the last bunch of hours deciding how to respond to you, ZagCEO and Skip in a manner to pursue a dialog within which people are not trying to change peoples opinions but in a manner to obtain further information within which each of us can make more intelligent decisions in our everyday lives as it applies to Covid-19 and the associated consequences of dealing with Covid-19. There are many points within which we can agree upon including (I believe) the following:

                  - Dr. Fauci and the CDC are not perfect, they are not infallible and they may (or have) lied in some fashion (even by omission).
                  - Dr. Fauci and the CDC have made statements and guidelines which have later been proved to be partially or fully incorrect based on more current data.
                  - There are ramifications of the Covid-19 suppression guidelines that are rarely discussed; additional mental health issues, educational issues, societal issues and increased crime issues, etc.
                  - Depending on how they are presented (or not presented), statistics can be used to (apparently) support both sides of the same issue.
                  - There definitely is a political purpose/slant and a sensationalism to the reporting of Covid-19 (amongst almost every reported item). It is all about the views/clicks, etc.

                  I think the vast majority of board posters would agree with the above statements. To begin a real discussion we need general topic (say Covid-19 Response) before we break it down in to sub-topics (mental health, education, crime, politics, etc.). So let's start there and see where it goes:

                  The popular view as reported by the mainstream media is that the current CDC recommendations (generally speaking for most areas) include use of masks when in public, social distance a minimum of 6', limit the size of gatherings, and stay at home whenever possible. Obviously, there are significant ramifications seen as a result of implementation of these guidelines including but certainly not limited to a huge impact on the economy, impact on education, an increase in mental health, a reduction in civility amongst the population, etc. The intended trade-off (according to many sources) is a reduction in the number of Covid-19 infections and in the end a reduction in the number of deaths. is the disconnect.

                  O'k ZagCEO, Skip and Markburn1 (and any others who want to chime in) if you don't agree with the above guidelines, what do you want to see implemented in lieu of the current CDC guidelines?

                  It is easy to throw darts and and complain about the ramifications of an existing plan, it has a proven (unproven) track record, but what are you going to propose as an alternative? You got something better, share it with us.

                  ZagDad

                  Comment


                  • Alaska Airlines flight out of Spokane delayed over passengers refusing to wear masks
                    Posted: August 11, 2020 10:48 PM
                    Updated: August 12, 2020 7:13 AM by Kyle Simchuk

                    SPOKANE, Wash. — An Alaska Airlines flight out of Spokane was delayed. Not because of mechanical problems, but because several passengers refused to wear their masks.

                    Even after a warning from flight attendants, several passengers on board the flight from Spokane to Portland refused to cover their face.

                    “There were was a lot of really nice people on this plane that just wanted to go home,” said Karyn Schimmels.

                    She was one of those passengers last Sunday, on her way home from Spokane to Portland.

                    Alaska flight 2698 was scheduled to take off on time.

                    “Once they were seated, removed their mask below their nose and were not willing to put it back up,” said Schimmels.

                    She says about 10 passengers in the back of the plane refused to cover their faces properly.

                    “They just had a lot of disregard for the other passengers on the plane,” said Schimmels. “I wear my mask for myself but also for everybody else.”

                    They were warned by flight attendants and Schimmel says they still refused to pull their masks up. Then they were given yellow cards- a final notice.

                    After that, passengers who refuse to wear a mask won’t be allowed to fly on Alaska as long as the policy remains in effect.

                    Schimmels says the group still wouldn’t budge.

                    “They removed everyone from the plane, we all had to get our personal belongings and our luggage and go back into the lobby,” said Schimmels.

                    “I heard them talking to a couple of the airline folks. ‘Can you really do this to us?’ You know, when the police arrived: ‘Can they really do this to us?,” Schimmels said.

                    The flight was delayed 45 minutes, and Schimmels isn’t sure if the stubborn group was allowed back on. According to Alaska, suspensions happen immediately upon landing. However, the yellow cards were handed out before takeoff.

                    “We had to be inconvenienced because they didn’t like that rule,” said Schimmels. “It was only a 45-minute delay, I was amazed by that and a very smooth flight home, so I was just happy to get home.”

                    4 News Now reached out to Alaska to see what happened to those passengers. We did not hear back.

                    Other airlines like Delta and United require face coverings while on board planes. They also are threatening to ban passengers from future flights if they don’t follow the rule.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Markburn1 View Post
                      Hey gastro guy.

                      Pretty frustrating to post here because of the overwhelming bias. Back a couple months ago there were more diverse views but at this point only one aspect of the story is being discussed. Any news that doesn’t match the narrative is immediately dismissed.

                      Your response is a case in point. Many times on this and other threads the CDC has been touted as an authority that we should not question. Yet, when that authority strays from the script their methods are immediately questioned.

                      I stopped commenting for a couple months. Time to do it again.

                      By the way, the CDC compared percentages of mental health issues from the same time period last year. The elevated risk is a comparison of this year over last.
                      O'k Mark, stop complaining and share data from the other point of view. The only data that I see shared from your point of view is a 2 month old article commenting on remarks made by Dr. Fauci 6 months ago, CDC statistics on Child infection rates and the increase in mental health issues. The responses included sonuvazag providing an opinion on why Dr. Fauci may have made the statements he did in February/March and myself acknowledging the mis-statements made by Dr. Fauci, an acknowledgment of the CDC statistics you presented by several posters but noted that the child infection rates went up 40% in July and were likely to go much higher as schools began to open and the statistics link on the increases in mental health issues with TummyDoc simply questioning how the data was collected and why the data may be misleading. Hardly dismissive in any case.

                      Your response is a case in point. Many times on this and other threads the CDC has been touted as an authority that we should not question. Yet, when that authority strays from the script their methods are immediately questioned.
                      This is just ripe. I am sorry Mark but this appears to be really hypocritical. In one sentence you want to dismiss the validity of Dr. Fauci and the CDC and the next you complain when a poster (who is experienced in studies publication) calls into question what appears to him, to be a reporting bias, you conveniently dismiss his expertise. Why not use TummyDoc's expertise to see where he thinks the problems are and then you can research them and see if his concerns are valid or not. TummyDoc had a valid point, why not discuss instead of just dismiss like you are accusing the other posters of doing on this thread?

                      Hard to have a conversation when you leave when anybody questions your position.

                      Educate us, show us why you have the view that you have.

                      ZagDad

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ZagDad84 View Post
                        O'k Mark, stop complaining and share data from the other point of view. The only data that I see shared from your point of view is a 2 month old article commenting on remarks made by Dr. Fauci 6 months ago, CDC statistics on Child infection rates and the increase in mental health issues. The responses included sonuvazag providing an opinion on why Dr. Fauci may have made the statements he did in February/March and myself acknowledging the mis-statements made by Dr. Fauci, an acknowledgment of the CDC statistics you presented by several posters but noted that the child infection rates went up 40% in July and were likely to go much higher as schools began to open and the statistics link on the increases in mental health issues with TummyDoc simply questioning how the data was collected and why the data may be misleading. Hardly dismissive in any case.



                        This is just ripe. I am sorry Mark but this appears to be really hypocritical. In one sentence you want to dismiss the validity of Dr. Fauci and the CDC and the next you complain when a poster (who is experienced in studies publication) calls into question what appears to him, to be a reporting bias, you conveniently dismiss his expertise. Why not use TummyDoc's expertise to see where he thinks the problems are and then you can research them and see if his concerns are valid or not. TummyDoc had a valid point, why not discuss instead of just dismiss like you are accusing the other posters of doing on this thread?

                        Hard to have a conversation when you leave when anybody questions your position.

                        Educate us, show us why you have the view that you have.

                        ZagDad
                        Not worth it Zagdad. You can’t even get it right on what I posted. You’ve attributed things to me that were another poster’s. Carry on.

                        Comment


                        • Okay Mark, I got your six again....

                          ZD... all I see is, Mark doesn’t trust Dr. Fauci or the CDC. Why... they are constantly changing their stance... one day sugar isn’t good for you, the next day it is. One day butter isn’t good for you... the next day it is.
                          You see, trust is something you have to earn. And knowing governmental affairs as I do, trust for me is hard to come by.
                          And for science.... everyone has said... follow the science. Ah... which one? Which study?

                          Cad said leave politics out of the discussion... really? Politics is one of the drivers... You can’t turn around without tripping over politics.

                          Something to think about... we know this virus is going to be around awhile no matter what we do. Even with meds, which is figured to be about plus/minus 50% affective, do we live as we are now or do we look at ways to mitigate. Do we go on the attack to find ways to live our lives and beat it with time and meds?

                          Our history has shown that we have taken on as a nation tougher enemies than this virus. To be honest, I’m quite surprised how we have reacted.

                          Are we going to let this virus beat us?

                          Stay safe and protect others...

                          Go Zags!!

                          Tummy... you have added much to the conversation... and I never took you as lecturing. Please keep bringing your thoughts

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SkipZag View Post
                            Okay Mark, I got your six again....

                            ZD... all I see is, Mark doesn’t trust Dr. Fauci or the CDC. Why... they are constantly changing their stance... one day sugar isn’t good for you, the next day it is. One day butter isn’t good for you... the next day it is.
                            You see, trust is something you have to earn. And knowing governmental affairs as I do, trust for me is hard to come by.
                            And for science.... everyone has said... follow the science. Ah... which one? Which study?
                            Apparently you didn't listen to one word of what I have said previously.

                            Cad said leave politics out of the discussion... really? Politics is one of the drivers... You can’t turn around without tripping over politics.
                            OK, keep pushing politics on this board. It'll get you far.

                            Something to think about... we know this virus is going to be around awhile no matter what we do. Even with meds, which is figured to be about plus/minus 50% affective, do we live as we are now or do we look at ways to mitigate. Do we go on the attack to find ways to live our lives and beat it with time and meds?
                            If you don't know the difference between "affective" and "effective," then what is your purpose? One is emotional (and probably your driving engine), the other has to do with outcomes. The latter is probably more important.

                            Our history has shown that we have taken on as a nation tougher enemies than this virus. To be honest, I’m quite surprised how we have reacted.
                            Yes, but never in the history of our country has the populous decided to abjectly surrender to an enemy that has now destroyed mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, little children to the tune of 200,000+ in six months.

                            Are we going to let this virus beat us?
                            With your attitude, I expect yes. Rainbows and lollipops aren't going to fix the problem. You were questioning whether Idaho was a concern. ADA county now has death trucks parked so people can bring in their dead.

                            Stay safe and protect others...
                            As long as it's not you. Keep on saying that sentiment.

                            And, I'll add:

                            Tummy... you have added much to the conversation... and I never took you as lecturing. Please keep bringing your thoughts
                            Tummy (assuming a GI doc, which I have high regard for considering prior horrifying experiences) has clearly come around considering his prior posts (when it was just the flu) which then became a force of science. Someone who actually looked at the data and adapted. My admiration. We have similar experiences. Data comes in and we adjust. Don't take his posts as just a change of opinion. It's based on factual data when it becomes available. I don't get this "I've got your six" crap when it just opinionated yahoo. That doesn't inform the scientific literature in any way, that's just buttkissing because you feel that way. Give me some factual data, and then we can have a conversation. While politics influences our approach, there's no reason to ignore what every expert has been shouting. I never, ever want to see a patient get a Sengstaken-Blakemore tube in their esophagus.

                            Just an example of what people have zero idea what any of this means, but affects all of us every day.

                            Pay attention, because here's some important real news:

                            Fauci believes normalcy will return by "the end of 2021" with coronavirus vaccine

                            CDC director warns America is in for the 'worst fall … we've ever had'

                            As I said before, rebut with DATA or solid facts. If you want to send spitballs at me with your opinion pieces, go ahead. It's amazing these petty posters run in like go-karts and fly away with a petty argument and then disappear. Wheee. Then they're gone. Zero data, zero factual information. Opinions 100%. Try harder.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ZagDad84 View Post
                              Governor's seat in Washington State (Sorry Cad) come November, our path is set.
                              Please don't assume my affiliations. I adhere to the science, not anyone who has some political bent. I'm very much focused on the science, and not politicians, whatever they have to say. I'm pro Zag, but after that...go figure.

                              We all want and need to get to Phase III before more businesses will be permitted to open, the occupancy of certain establishments will be permitted to be increased, in school classes can be held (at least part time) and so on.
                              Not happening until we deal with the pandemic. You can't fix all the other problems (suicidal ideation, cratering of the economy, unemployment, basketball sometime) until the pandemic is MANAGED.

                              No matter what side of the isle you are on, the goal of everybody would appear to be to get to Phase III and then on to Phase IV to get closer to normalcy. You need to ask yourself, is what you are doing, practicing or preaching helping the State move towards Phase III or is it making the time we are going to spend in Phase II longer and delaying our movement forward. Are you part of the solution or are you part of the problem.
                              It's "aisle,' not an island (isle). I'm apparently turning into a grammar Nazi. Doesn't matter. No one apparently is following the rules. Appreciate your sentiments nonetheless.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by caduceus View Post
                                Please don't assume my affiliations. I adhere to the science, not anyone who has some political bent. I'm very much focused on the science, and not politicians, whatever they have to say. I'm pro Zag, but after that...go figure.



                                Not happening until we deal with the pandemic. You can't fix all the other problems (suicidal ideation, cratering of the economy, unemployment, basketball sometime) until the pandemic is MANAGED.



                                It's "aisle,' not an island (isle). I'm apparently turning into a grammar Nazi. Doesn't matter. No one apparently is following the rules. Appreciate your sentiments nonetheless.
                                Perhaps it's which side of the "I'll" they're on?

                                Thank you for your posts. I look for articles at many places. Yours tend to be the most succinct and convey the most amount of information. I appreciate what you post here, and because you type it I don't have trouble reading it, assuming that you have 'normal' doctors scrawl. LOL
                                Last edited by willandi; 08-15-2020, 10:28 AM.
                                Not even a smile? What's your problem!

                                Comment

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