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  • International Question - Mojo or others?

    As a casual NBA fan and basically a totally ignorant international pro basketball fan, could someone explain a bit about the hierarchy or relative prestige/pay/quality of the leagues overseas?

    I noticed that Johnathan Williams (a marginal NBA player) is now set to play in Israel. NWG obviously was playing in Greece. Kyle Wiltjer has bounced around for a few seasons.

    Is there anything like a "#1 league" outside the NBA? If there is, why wouldn't a fringe NBA guy like Williams end up there?

    Thanks

  • #2
    Here's an article from a couple of years ago by Fran Fraschilla, answering your question: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...ll-leagues-nba

    Fran ranks the leagues:

    1. Euroleague, followed by

    Eurocup

    2. Spain's Liga ACB

    3. Turkish Basketball Super League (BSL)

    4. Russia's VTB United League

    5. Germany's Basketball Bundesliga (BBL)

    6. Italy's Lega Basket Serie A (LBA)

    7. France's LNB Pro A

    8. Adriatic League (ABA)

    9. Greek A1 League

    10. Australia's National Basketball League (NBL)

    11. Lithuania's LKL

    12. Chinese Basketball Association (CBA)
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    • #3
      You got me curious, LTownZag, about how many Zags play abroad in the same home and/or international leagues. Here's what I found:



      Obviously, some tams don't play an an international league as well as their home league.

      Also, I don't know why the BCL isn't on Fran's list. It calls on a number of very successful teams.
      Last edited by ZagNative; 08-05-2019, 08:11 PM.
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      • #4
        Originally posted by LTownZag View Post
        As a casual NBA fan and basically a totally ignorant international pro basketball fan, could someone explain a bit about the hierarchy or relative prestige/pay/quality of the leagues overseas?

        I noticed that Johnathan Williams (a marginal NBA player) is now set to play in Israel. NWG obviously was playing in Greece. Kyle Wiltjer has bounced around for a few seasons.

        Is there anything like a "#1 league" outside the NBA? If there is, why wouldn't a fringe NBA guy like Williams end up there?

        Thanks
        There are so many different domestic leagues around the world it becomes difficult to rank where the best "jobs" are because there are some second tier franchises that pay more money and more often on time than some first tier franchises. In the past week I have had a conversation with four different kids that were considering overseas offers. All were starters at major universities. One was offered $1000 month in 2nd German League, one was going to make $4000 a month in the top Lebanese League, one was being offered 10k a month to play in the 1st Italian League, and one has already signed to make $3500 month in Mexico League.

        The teams that compete in the EuroCup are from a variety of domestic leagues, and generally speaking they are considered the top European teams. After that, it really depends on where you are and how much $$ they are paying you as to how good the job is. Making 5K a month in Sydney Australia for a team that always pays its players on time is probably a better gig than making 7K a month in the Ukraine for a team with a history of treating Americans like crap and not paying them when they fail to produce.

        With JW3 I imagine he negotiated a pretty good deal seeing as how he has NBA experience, which is huge if you are demanding top $$ in Europe.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by MileHigh View Post
          There are so many different domestic leagues around the world it becomes difficult to rank where the best "jobs" are because there are some second tier franchises that pay more money and more often on time than some first tier franchises. In the past week I have had a conversation with four different kids that were considering overseas offers. All were starters at major universities. One was offered $1000 month in 2nd German League, one was going to make $4000 a month in the top Lebanese League, one was being offered 10k a month to play in the 1st Italian League, and one has already signed to make $3500 month in Mexico League.

          The teams that compete in the EuroCup are from a variety of domestic leagues, and generally speaking they are considered the top European teams. After that, it really depends on where you are and how much $$ they are paying you as to how good the job is. Making 5K a month in Sydney Australia for a team that always pays its players on time is probably a better gig than making 7K a month in the Ukraine for a team with a history of treating Americans like crap and not paying them when they fail to produce.

          With JW3 I imagine he negotiated a pretty good deal seeing as how he has NBA experience, which is huge if you are demanding top $$ in Europe.
          Thanks for the response, very interesting.
          I will thank God for the day and the moment I have. - Jimmy V

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          • #6
            Originally posted by webspinnre View Post
            Thanks for the response, very interesting.

            Yeah - you almost have to look at like if the NCAA was a professional league. Perhaps as an example consider that like the WCC there can be some a very "rich" clubs (ie Gonzaga), a secondary club or two (BYU - St Mary's) and then a bunch of poor low budget minnows in domestic league. The Lithuanian league would be a good example. Or there are "power" domestic leagues like the ACC (the Spanish ACB or the Turkish TBL may be loose examples) where there are a number of wealthier clubs and it is a much more competitive league across the board.

            Then you have the Pan-European leagues mentioned above like the EuroLeague and the EuroCup where the better teams from the various domestic leagues also play. The EuroLeague is the premier league and comprises most of the wealthiest clubs in Europe. If your guys is on one of those teams they are likely among the 100 or so best plaid players in Europe. The EuroCup would come next and feeds into the EuroLeague.

            It is hard to gauge the relative strength of domestic leagues but there is a loose hierarchy (see above). But there can be good big budget clubs in weaker domestic leagues who are better than low or average teams in better domestic leagues (with higher pay).

            And then there is China - very high pay - often higher than the EuroLeague for ex-NBA players. But a still a very weak league in terms of quality of play. And the NBL in Australia is getting better every year as well.

            In short - look beyond just the domestic league that someone plays in (the individual club is more important) and see if is a EuroLeague team or EuroCup or then the FIBA Champions League (which has some teams that are way better than EuroCup temas but is generally a weaker pan-European league.

            Hope that helps.

            Specific to JWIII - that is a little lower club but he is just starting out in Europe (it is really a "prove it" attitude towards young Americans). NWG, Pangos, Wiltjer, , Daye have all had their time at the top clubs in Europe (EuroLeague clubs). Pangos and NWG have been quite successful . Wiltjer and Daye have slowly fallen off but still going at slightly lower levels.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ZagNative View Post
              You got me curious, LTownZag, about how many Zags play abroad in the same home and/or international leagues. Here's what I found:



              Obviously, some tams don't play an an international league as well as their home league.

              Also, I don't know why the BCL isn't on Fran's list. It calls on a number of very successful teams.
              If I had to rank the pay rates it is likely the EuroLeague guys first (Pangos, NWG last year) then the EuroCup (Daye, JWIII) then the BCL guys - however Brose (Harris) has been a EuroLeague team in the past and has a good budget. He could be paid more than the EuroCup guys. Wiltjer too as the bigger Turkish teams historical have had solid budgets. This is all educated guessing though and there is load of variation from club to club.

              The rest of the guys are like a fraction of say Pangos's 1MM euro net (after tax) salary. He is very likely the highest paid of all the guys on the list by a wide margin.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by ZagNative View Post
                You got me curious, LTownZag, about how many Zags play abroad in the same home and/or international leagues. Here's what I found:



                Obviously, some tams don't play an an international league as well as their home league.

                Also, I don't know why the BCL isn't on Fran's list. It calls on a number of very successful teams.
                We should have this chart pinned to the top in its own thread on Old Dogs...
                The only hope we have for a better future is to come together and do everything we possibly can in order to achieve a sustainable existence. Everything else is folly of a broken foundation.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Malastein View Post
                  We should have this chart pinned to the top in its own thread on Old Dogs...
                  Agreed! First time I’m seeing it. Thanks ZN!

                  Is Karnowski not playing anywhere this season?
                  Even though I care a lot about my basketball opinions, they are like comparing a bicycle to a championship motorcycle who is our coach. . ZagsGoZags

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GonzagasaurusFlex View Post
                    Is Karnowski not playing anywhere this season?
                    He played few games for Polski Cukier Torun in 18-19 season of Polish Basketball League (PLK) but got injured again and again. No news for now where he is going.
                    Probably the only Gonzaga fan in Ireland!

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                    • #11
                      Are Pargo and Micah Downs still playing?


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by NontradZag View Post
                        Are Pargo and Micah Downs still playing?


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        Pargo was with Maccabi Tel Aviv, but I don't know that he's signed anywhere for this year yet.

                        Downs is listed on the roster for Benfica in Portugal.

                        https://www.eurobasket.com/team//Spo...boa_Benfica/97
                        I will thank God for the day and the moment I have. - Jimmy V

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                        • #13
                          Here is an annual ranking of the domestic leagues in Europe by Eurohoops.net.

                          https://www.eurohoops.net/en/league-...-the-others/4/

                          This can help you differentiate the domestic leagues but always keep in mind the individual club is probably more important. For example you will see the Lithuanian league ranked 10th here, but Pangos' old club Zalgiris plays there and is definitely is a top 10 club in all of Europe.

                          Also note this doesn't include the international leagues - EuroLeague, EuroCup, FIBA Champions League, FIBA Europe Cup (listed in order of quality) that many clubs also play in.

                          Even in something like the EuroLeague there is huge disparity in pay - A deep pocked club like CSKA has a +40MM euro budget (including operational costs, not just salaries) where Zalgiris is around 10MM euros (about $8MM dedicated to salaries).

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mojo13 View Post
                            Here is an annual ranking of the domestic leagues in Europe by Eurohoops.net.

                            https://www.eurohoops.net/en/league-...-the-others/4/

                            This can help you differentiate the domestic leagues but always keep in mind the individual club is probably more important. For example you will see the Lithuanian league ranked 10th here, but Pangos' old club Zalgiris plays there and is definitely is a top 10 club in all of Europe.

                            Also note this doesn't include the international leagues - EuroLeague, EuroCup, FIBA Champions League, FIBA Europe Cup (listed in order of quality) that many clubs also play in.

                            Even in something like the EuroLeague there is huge disparity in pay - A deep pocked club like CSKA has a +40MM euro budget (including operational costs, not just salaries) where Zalgiris is around 10MM euros (about $8MM dedicated to salaries).
                            Thanks for posting this!

                            Do you have any insight why a 2nd year fringe NBA type player (JW3) would go from NBA/G-league to an Israeli Winner's League & Eurocup team to suddenly? To the ignorant (me) it seems like a big dropoff.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LTownZag View Post
                              Thanks for posting this!

                              Do you have any insight why a 2nd year fringe NBA type player (JW3) would go from NBA/G-league to an Israeli Winner's League & Eurocup team to suddenly? To the ignorant (me) it seems like a big dropoff.
                              I would suspect that they pay significantly better than the G-league does.
                              I will thank God for the day and the moment I have. - Jimmy V

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