General Science Thread

[kitzbuel]

In regards to the lack of testing...

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...th-versus-fact

It is also worth knowing that research into developing these vaccines actually started several years prior with the work done on MERS, SARS, and other corona viruses. Scientists have been concerned about these types of viruses and have been researching them for more than 25 years. They had a tremendous head start on the vaccine development because of this.

The research that helped to develop vaccines against the new coronavirus didn’t start in January. For years, researchers had been paying attention to related coronaviruses, which cause SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome) and MERS (Middle East respiratory syndrome), and some had been working on new kinds of vaccine — an effort that has now paid off spectacularly.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03626-1

Decades of research have gone in to developing the science and techniques needed to create these vaccines. In a way scientists were lucky that such a heavily researched virus type ended up causing this pandemic. They had such a head start.

[Martin Centre Mad Man]

I will add one more observation regarding the comparative risks of the COVID-19 virus compared to the COVID-19 vaccines.

It is true that we don’t know much about the long-term health consequences of these vaccines. However, we don’t know much about the long-term effects of the virus, either. We don’t know if COVID survivors will have shorter life expectancies than their peers. We don’t know how many of them will suffer long-term neurological damage, lung damage, or heart damage. In the short-term, COVID survivors have suffered all of those harms.

We do know that we have been studying this virus for nearly two years. We began working on vaccines to fight it shortly after we discovered it. We have observed the shorter term health effects of the virus in tens of millions of people. We have observed the shorter term effects of the vaccines in hundreds of millions of people.

In the “short-term,” the virus is far, far more dangerous than the vaccines.

[Zagceo]

Thanks Martin. Both good points.

Is it true that CDC doesn’t consider a person fully vaccinated for 14 days after the second dose?

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7034e5-H.pdf

Does that mean if a person enters the hospital after the first dose and 13 days after the second are they considered unvaccinated?

[Martin Centre Mad Man]

Thanks Martin. Both good points.

Is it true that CDC doesn’t consider a person fully vaccinated for 14 days after the second dose?

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7034e5-H.pdf

Does that mean if a person enters the hospital after the first dose and 13 days after the second are they considered unvaccinated?

A person is not considered fully vaccinated, until fourteen days after their final dose. We’ve used the term, “partially vaccinated,” to describe persons during that interim period. The vaccines begin to offer some protection within a few days of the first dose, but they are more effective after that period has elapsed.

[Zagceo]

What do you think of these studies that indicate natural immunity from prior infection is more robust than the COVID vaccine?

New York University, May 3, 2021 "In COVID-19 patients, immune responses were characterized by a highly augmented interferon response which was largely absent in vaccine recipients. Increased interferon signaling likely contributed to the observed dramatic upregulation of cytotoxic genes in the peripheral T cells and innate-like lymphocytes in patients but not in immunized subjects."

Israeli researchers, August 22, 2021Aside from more robust T cell and memory B cell immunity, which is more important than antibody levels, Israeli researchers found that antibodies wane slower among those with prior infection. "In vaccinated subjects, antibody titers decreased by up to 40% each subsequent month while in convalescents they decreased by less than 5% per month."

[Zagceo]

Wall Street Journal questions COVID Vaccine safety.

Writing in an op-ed for the Wall Street Journal, UCLA Geffen School of Medicine Doctor Joseph Lapado and Yale School of Public Health Doctor Harvey Risch warn there are legitimate and serious concerns about the side effects of the Wuhan coronavirus vaccine.

https://drrichswier.com/2021/08/26/wall-street-journal-questions-covid-vaccine-safety/

Covid more likely to cause serious side effects than vaccine

https://www.jpost.com/health-science/serious-adverse-events-more-likely-from-covid-vs-covid-vaccine-study-677731

[Eroop22]

I have a small retail jewelry store, In 2020 I was closed from late March to mid June. 1/3rd of my annual income is derived from Arts and Craft shows and Highland Games from June through September. I didn't get any unemployment or government money. I toughed it out.
My wife has a compromised immune system, so we masked up from March until after April, a year later. I got vaccinated in March of 2021, both shots, and my wife a month later.
WE isolated, masked and distanced for over a full year. The shows have just started to come back and now Delta is here. Why? Because those that could have distanced, masked and vaccinated didn't.
For the last 16 months I have done my duty.

You don't want to have to stay home? Do YOUR duty. It's your turn anyway.

Sorry to hear you have struggled. Your struggles aren't unique to you. I too have lost income. I have relatives who are immune compromised. My nephew has cystic fibrosis. I have worn a mask in public since March 2020 and have never stopped wearing one even after getting the vaccine. Not sure why you think I am not doing my duty or why it's my turn anyways.

I stand by what I said. Your previous comment was unsettling to me on many levels and I couldn't disagree with it more.

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[kitzbuel]

Wall Street Journal questions COVID Vaccine safety.

https://drrichswier.com/2021/08/26/wall-street-journal-questions-covid-vaccine-safety/

Covid more likely to cause serious side effects than vaccine


https://www.jpost.com/health-science...e-study-677731

I guess I am not understanding. The Jerusalem Post article says there are a lot more bad effects from contracting COVID than from the vaccine and the the effects are more serious that those from the vaccine.

Individuals who take the Pfizer coronavirus vaccine may suffer from four out of up to 25 clinically relevant side effects: myocarditis, swelling of the lymph nodes, appendicitis and herpes zoster, according to a new Israeli-American study.
In contrast, high rates of multiple serious adverse events were associated with coronavirus infection among unvaccinated patients, including a greatly increased risk of developing myocarditis, pericarditis, arrhythmias, heart attacks, strokes, pulmonary embolism, deep-vein thrombosis or acute kidney damage, the study indicated.
Myocarditis is an inflammation of the heart muscle. Unvaccinated people who contracted COVID-19 were four times more likely to develop myocarditis than vaccinated people were. There were around 2.7 cases of myocarditis per 100,000 vaccinated people infected with the virus, compared with 11 cases per 100,000 unvaccinated people who were infected.

That appears to state that unvaccinated effects are worse and happen more frequently.

[kitzbuel]

This is one of the coolest visualizations of a blackhole I have ever seen. This is a visualization of a star getting sucked up, or rather shattered, by a black hole. It shows spectacularly what the combined effects of the star's acceleration as it orbits closely by the black hole combined with the massive de-acceleration of parts of the star as one side of the star experience greater gravitational pull than the other. The star is completely ripped apart and spewed out.

https://www.livescience.com/video-black-hole-shredding-star.html

[Zagceo]

I guess I am not understanding. The Jerusalem Post article says there are a lot more bad effects from contracting COVID than from the vaccine and the the effects are more serious that those from the vaccine.



That appears to state that unvaccinated effects are worse and happen more frequently.

what are you not understanding?

[willandi]

Sorry to hear you have struggled. Your struggles aren't unique to you. I too have lost income. I have relatives who are immune compromised. My nephew has cystic fibrosis. I have worn a mask in public since March 2020 and have never stopped wearing one even after getting the vaccine. Not sure why you think I am not doing my duty or why it's my turn anyways.

I stand by what I said. Your previous comment was unsettling to me on many levels and I couldn't disagree with it more.

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We will have to agree to disagree as I stand by my statement. I am not a doctor or a scientist, and didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn...but almost every doctor or scientist that I have read about agrees that the virus is much worse than the vaccine.
Barring any legitimate medical reason and/or being a member of a religion that historically has refused vaccines, not getting vaccinated is just selfish. Those people should be the ones having to stay home, not the ones that have made the effort to get past this pandemic.

[Eroop22]

We will have to agree to disagree as I stand by my statement. I am not a doctor or a scientist, and didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn...but almost every doctor or scientist that I have read about agrees that the virus is much worse than the vaccine.
Barring any legitimate medical reason and/or being a member of a religion that historically has refused vaccines, not getting vaccinated is just selfish. Those people should be the ones having to stay home, not the ones that have made the effort to get past this pandemic.

[emoji106] I respect you sticking to your guns. No matter how wrong I think you are. Hope things turn around for your business and your family stays safe and healthy.

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[Zagceo]

I don’t understand what’s going on with all the stories about Politicians, athletes, musicians getting double vaccinations and yet coming down with COVID-19. Especially in the summer after a huge surge in people getting vaccinated.

including our own DZ. Glad your better.

Something doesn’t add up. Now the booster shot is coming.

This story is concerning about break through cases in the ER not getting counted.

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-cdc-only-tracks-a-fraction-of-breakthrough-covid-19-infections-even-as-cases-surge

Thanks Martin and 23 for all your input.

Thanks DZ for allowing me to ask some questions in your science thread.

[23dpg]

I think this will be my last attempt for clarification on what has been a very civil discourse on covid and the vaccine.

1. The vaccine isn’t a full proof shield. But the numbers clearly show it protects you from serious complications at a rate from 10 to 50 times over not getting the vaccine.

2. I’m not sure what double vaccinations are but the reason you’re seeing covid cases from vaccinated people are that they are still possible (see above), we are in a surge greater than last year, and the vaccine’s range of coverage was about 9 months (+/-). The farther out from the vaccination, the less “protected” you are. Most health care workers were vaccinated last December. Including myself.

3. The reason that you’re hearing about politicians, athletes, and musicians is.......well, they’re politicians, athletes, and musicians.

4. About the double blinded study question. Studies like this are often halted when enough evidence can show whether they’re helpful, harmful or benign. It became apparent early on that this vaccine was helpful. (Again, not a cure).
There is also enough data with such a significant portion of the country not vaccinated. Unless this population is somehow 10-50 times more likely to get the disease (obese, smokers, bad lungs, immunodeficient,etc), the double blinded studies aren’t necessary.

Edit to add: Here’s is a good rundown from the cdc of how polio was eradicated in the US. Back then, people of every political ideology and ethnicity took the vaccine. There was a greater trust of scientists and medical advancements. Politicians, athletes and musicians have much more sway in today’s culture. (Thanks social media )

https://www.cdc.gov/polio/what-is-polio/polio-us.html

[DZ]

I don’t understand what’s going on with all the stories about Politicians, athletes, musicians getting double vaccinations and yet coming down with COVID-19. Especially in the summer after a huge surge in people getting vaccinated.

including our own DZ. Glad your better.

Something doesn’t add up. Now the booster shot is coming.

This story is concerning about break through cases in the ER not getting counted.

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-cdc-only-tracks-a-fraction-of-breakthrough-covid-19-infections-even-as-cases-surge

Thanks Martin and 23 for all your input.

Thanks DZ for allowing me to ask some questions in your science thread.

Here is what I know. I have read a study that says the Pfizer vaccine is 42% less effective in preventing "breakthrough" cases of COVID.

HOWEVER: Big Caveat, It Still essentially provides a shield from someone having to go to the hospital.

I will give you my perspective alone: I had been fully vaccinated for 4-5 months. I ran into the Delta variant in one of the worst counties in the country (Bc we're a huge tourism county for all the southeast, the hotspot).

I was sick as a dog. BUT, at no point, not once, was I short of breath. I was tired beyond words. I had headaches. I had double vision. Body aches. Weird places of my skin would feel like it was on fire. The edge of my tongue hurt like a mother fff every morning and went away in 30 seconds.

Had I gone through all of that while struggling to breathe... I just don't know what to say.

They talk about the delta variant like it's almost a different virus, it's going after younger people. I am 50.

Take it for what it's worth. I didn't have one single side effect from the vaccine, not even an arm ache.

But I do not think that I would have gotten through delta COVID without hospitalization without that vaccine.

The giveaway is that I was not short of breath. Everyone I've known who ever had COVID without being vaccinated talked about how hard it was to breathe. I wasn't even stuffed up. Was not once short of breath. So, in my own personal little study that the docs here can check, I believe the vaccine saved me from the shortness of breath that kills people.

I worry that I wouldn't have survived. That is how sick I was and yet not once did I feel like I even needed to see a doctor.