Race thread (will be moved on Monday night)

[ZagDad84]

willandi,

How many police officers are there in the U.S? In 2018, there were 686,665 full-time law enforcement officers employed in the United States.

How many interactions are there between the police and the public?

The portion of U.S. residents age 16 or older who had contact with the police in the preceding 12 months (2015) was 53.5 million. That is the number of people, the actual number of interactions, assuming at least some of the people had multiple interactions during the year, would likely be considerably higher.

Here is some additional information for you from Bureau of Justice published in October, 2018 for the calendar year 2015

Police contact by Demographic Characteristics:
Whites (23%) were more likely than blacks (20%) or Hispanics (17%) to have contact with police. Police were equally likely to initiate contact with blacks and whites (11% each) but were less likely to initiate contact with Hispanics (9%). Also, police were more likely to initiate contact with males (12%) than with females (9%), while females (11%) were more likely to initiate contact with police than males (10%).

Police-initiated contact:
Of the 223.3 million U.S. drivers, 8.6% experienced a stop as the driver of a motor vehicle. A greater percentage of stopped drivers were male (10.2%) than female (7.0%). Blacks (9.8%) were more likely than whites (8.6%) and Hispanics (7.6%) to be the driver in a traffic stop. Overall, 1.0% of persons experienced one or more street stops while in a public place or parked vehicle. A higher percentage of blacks (1.5%) experienced street stops than whites (0.9%) and Hispanics (0.9%).

Residents’ perceptions of police behavior:
The vast majority (95%) of drivers who experienced a traffic stop indicated that police gave a reason for the stop. The primary reason police gave for pulling over a driver was speeding (41%). Most drivers stopped for speeding said the stop was legitimate (91%) and that police behaved properly (95%). In comparison, 60% of residents who were stopped by police in a street stop thought the reason was legitimate, and 81% believed police behaved properly.

Non-fatal Threat or Use of Force by Police:
Two percent of U.S. residents who had contact with police experienced threats or use of force. Among those whose most recent contact was police-initiated, blacks (5.2%) and Hispanics (5.1%) were more likely than whites (2.4%), and males (4.4%) were more likely than females (1.8%), to experience the threat or use of physical force by police.

As of Dec. 31, statistics from the Officer Down Memorial Page, which tracks the deaths of officers in the U.S. and its territories, indicate that 131 police officers have died in 2019, it is not only a one-way street.

Willandi, not disagreeing with you at all. We have a long way to go and yes it is not just the police that committing the atrocities that need to be removed, discipline or re-trained.

Just asking that when you take the George Floyd atrocity and others like it out of the millions of police actions that occur every year, it is an extremely small percentage of the police-public interactions. The hundreds of thousands of law-abiding policemen who daily carry out their duties do not need to be placed in the same basket as the worthless cops who break their trust with the public.

Evan one unnecessary fatality at the hands of the police is unacceptable, but we also have to recognize the other side of the coin as well.

ZagDad

[SLOZag]

I'm really having trouble biting my tongue over the lip service that is essentially excusing the rioting and looting that is occurring. ... From the minute I went on active duty, I was a minority. At that time Air Defense Artillery was about 1/3 white, 1/3 black, and 1/3 Hispanic. My best Group Commander was a black man, Johnie Forte Jr., who would achieve the rank of Brigadier General. ... I am extremely disappointed in the lack of leadership and courage displayed by the Governor of Minnesota.

Others have addressed the serious mistake that comes from confusing literally hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of peaceful protesters with a comparatively miniscule group of provocateurs who choose the demonstrations as an opportunity to destroy or steal property. As, like me, you appear to be a retired military man with concerns about the absence of leadership and courage in high places these days, I thought you might appreciate the thoughts published just today by retired four-star U.S. Marine Corps General Mattis, who served as President Donald Trump’s 26th Secretary of Defense from 2017 to 2018. General Mattis knows quite a bit about this topic, and he admits to being "angry and appalled" at "this week’s unfolding events":

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/03/read...-protests.html

[jazzdelmar]

What’s always puzzled me is how such a high percent of mass killers — in schools, offices, theaters, worship places — are so easily arrested and taken in without much apparent physical harm. True, many do off themselves, thank god, and many are mowed down, same sentiment. But why are even a handful taken in after a meek surrender and seem largely unarmed. Hmmm, maybe there’s an answer in the general racial profile of these monsters.

[willandi]

willandi,

How many police officers are there in the U.S? In 2018, there were 686,665 full-time law enforcement officers employed in the United States.

How many interactions are there between the police and the public?

The portion of U.S. residents age 16 or older who had contact with the police in the preceding 12 months (2015) was 53.5 million. That is the number of people, the actual number of interactions, assuming at least some of the people had multiple interactions during the year, would likely be considerably higher.

Here is some additional information for you from Bureau of Justice published in October, 2018 for the calendar year 2015

Police contact by Demographic Characteristics:
Whites (23%) were more likely than blacks (20%) or Hispanics (17%) to have contact with police. Police were equally likely to initiate contact with blacks and whites (11% each) but were less likely to initiate contact with Hispanics (9%). Also, police were more likely to initiate contact with males (12%) than with females (9%), while females (11%) were more likely to initiate contact with police than males (10%).

Police-initiated contact:
Of the 223.3 million U.S. drivers, 8.6% experienced a stop as the driver of a motor vehicle. A greater percentage of stopped drivers were male (10.2%) than female (7.0%). Blacks (9.8%) were more likely than whites (8.6%) and Hispanics (7.6%) to be the driver in a traffic stop. Overall, 1.0% of persons experienced one or more street stops while in a public place or parked vehicle. A higher percentage of blacks (1.5%) experienced street stops than whites (0.9%) and Hispanics (0.9%).

Residents’ perceptions of police behavior:
The vast majority (95%) of drivers who experienced a traffic stop indicated that police gave a reason for the stop. The primary reason police gave for pulling over a driver was speeding (41%). Most drivers stopped for speeding said the stop was legitimate (91%) and that police behaved properly (95%). In comparison, 60% of residents who were stopped by police in a street stop thought the reason was legitimate, and 81% believed police behaved properly.

Non-fatal Threat or Use of Force by Police:
Two percent of U.S. residents who had contact with police experienced threats or use of force. Among those whose most recent contact was police-initiated, blacks (5.2%) and Hispanics (5.1%) were more likely than whites (2.4%), and males (4.4%) were more likely than females (1.8%), to experience the threat or use of physical force by police.

As of Dec. 31, statistics from the Officer Down Memorial Page, which tracks the deaths of officers in the U.S. and its territories, indicate that 131 police officers have died in 2019, it is not only a one-way street.

Willandi, not disagreeing with you at all. We have a long way to go and yes it is not just the police that committing the atrocities that need to be removed, discipline or re-trained.

Just asking that when you take the George Floyd atrocity and others like it out of the millions of police actions that occur every year, it is an extremely small percentage of the police-public interactions. The hundreds of thousands of law-abiding policemen who daily carry out their duties do not need to be placed in the same basket as the worthless cops who break their trust with the public.

Evan one unnecessary fatality at the hands of the police is unacceptable, but we also have to recognize the other side of the coin as well.

ZagDad

It is interesting that you didn't actually respond to any of what I posted, about how it is possible to hold soldiers in combat zones accountable, but not Police. About the atrocities of the Tulsa Massacre and on going discrimination an violence used against People of Color. Or about the preversion of law that is qualified immunity.

You have offered up statistics that show the amount of contact, the number of people and, it seems to me, it is part of the same rationalization, the same justifications and excuses that are given, and used, to allow a pass to LEO.

I'm not saying you are wrong or that you are racist. I am saying that those are the same excuses used to allow the police to kill people.

According to government statistics in 2019, 235 black people were shot to death by police as opposed to 370 white, and 158 hispanics. There are 241 cases where the person's race is unknown. The reason for the fatal shooting or whether it was justifiable is not available in this study. It also should be noted that African Americans make up about 13% of the U.S. population according to the 2016 census, meaning the percentage of blacks and hispanics killed by police is very high, based on per capita.

72% of Americans are white.


https://wibx950.com/how-many-people-...led-by-police/

How about we de-militarize our police forces. Take away all the heavy riot gear, the weapons of war designed to keep them safe, but at the expense of those that they are supposed to be protecting and serving?

[willandi]

What’s always puzzled me is how such a high percent of mass killers — in schools, offices, theaters, worship places — are so easily arrested and taken in without much apparent physical harm. True, many do off themselves, thank god, and many are mowed down, same sentiment. But why are even a handful taken in after a meek surrender and seem largely unarmed. Hmmm, maybe there’s an answer in the general racial profile of these monsters.

Agreed. That is a huge picture of the problem.

'FBI warned of white supremacists in law enforcement 10 years ago. Has anything changed

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...1CoEbqnVQbSBHc

[LTownZag]

According to government statistics in 2019, 235 black people were shot to death by police as opposed to 370 white, and 158 hispanics. There are 241 cases where the person's race is unknown. The reason for the fatal shooting or whether it was justifiable is not available in this study. It also should be noted that African Americans make up about 13% of the U.S. population according to the 2016 census, meaning the percentage of blacks and hispanics killed by police is very high, based on per capita.

That's some really overly simplistic thinking about proportionality or disproportionality. Women are under-arrested per-capita, but we don't think police are uniformly sexist against men. We don't get worried that elderly americans, or Asian Americans, or Amish/mennonite/devout Muslim or orthodox Jewish americans are all arrested at levels FAR BELOW their raw per-capita numbers in the country. We don't accuse or assume that the police have massive hidden pro-women or pro-elderly or pro-Asian or Pro-religion biases to explain why so few people from those groups are arrested, assaulted by, or killed by police. We understand that it's silly to expect police interactions and police violence to be distributed equally (what current social justice proponents would call "equity") across a society with massively unequal crime rates.

If you compare the numbers of people from "x" group who are killed by police annually to the number of annual violent crimes, or arrests for violent crimes, or simply number of murders and assaults committed each year by people from "X" group, you find an extremely high correlation and close proportionality.

People over age 60 or women or Asian-Americans aren't committing murders, aren't encountering police in violent situations, and aren't getting arrested or killed. People from other groups (and basically just males from age 15-40 without stable employment or families) are doing all of those bad things, and are getting arrested and killed.

72% of Americans are white.

The 72% total groups hispanics with whites. I personally think all these categories are a stupid antiquated dead-end, but "white" americans make up 60% of the country, not 72%.

[ZagsObserver]

Let me preface by saying that we ought to do a better job of listening to lived experiences. Perception or reality, there is a lot of pain. As a majority race, whites need to recognize that history has not been kind to certain races. We bear that responsibility. It’s our turn and inherent obligation to do better in all areas. Again, it starts with listening.

As for your comment, Willandi, it’s not just looting and destruction. Officers were shot, a couple killed. Is that representative of most of the protesters? Absolutely not, nor are the brutal actions of certain cops representative of most cops. Rationalizations are unhelpful.

Obama actually made a nice statement regarding the state of affairs on this matter.

[Kong-Kool-Aid]

These protests aren't just about this one incident, they are the result of systematic racism that continues to exist in society. It's time to end that racism, it's time for truth and reconciliation and for the United States to take a hard look of where it currently stands, how it got there, and how it can move forward acknowledging the past and changing to fix these wrongs in the future.

As Dr. King said... "We cannot have an enlightened democracy with one great group living in ignorance."

[jazzdelmar]

Stupid Drew Brees stepped right into the trap, conflating Kap with disrespecting the flag. Was never that. Anthem was chosen as flashpoint for reasonable protest. Kap et al could have articulated better as well. NFL wraps itself in flag for monetary reasons and for typical fans. Sad.

[JPtheBeasta]

Stupid Drew Brees stepped right into the trap, conflating Kap with disrespecting the flag. Was never that. Anthem was chosen as flashpoint for reasonable protest. Kap et al could have articulated better as well. NFL wraps itself in flag for monetary reasons and for typical fans. Sad.

It may still be due to conflation but, if so, the debate was about disrespecting the flag very early on. This error was never corrected. For many people on the outside this was about disrespecting the flag, because his protest happened during the anthem, and it seems revisionist to suggest it was never about that. I don’t think his protest would have been offensive to so many if it happened at another time during pregame (any time but the anthem, essentially). This may be another example of persons talking past each other, or worse— people trying to take control of the narrative with an alternate reality.

[willandi]

That's some really overly simplistic thinking about proportionality or disproportionality. Women are under-arrested per-capita, but we don't think police are uniformly sexist against men. We don't get worried that elderly americans, or Asian Americans, or Amish/mennonite/devout Muslim or orthodox Jewish americans are all arrested at levels FAR BELOW their raw per-capita numbers in the country. We don't accuse or assume that the police have massive hidden pro-women or pro-elderly or pro-Asian or Pro-religion biases to explain why so few people from those groups are arrested, assaulted by, or killed by police. We understand that it's silly to expect police interactions and police violence to be distributed equally (what current social justice proponents would call "equity") across a society with massively unequal crime rates.

If you compare the numbers of people from "x" group who are killed by police annually to the number of annual violent crimes, or arrests for violent crimes, or simply number of murders and assaults committed each year by people from "X" group, you find an extremely high correlation and close proportionality.

People over age 60 or women or Asian-Americans aren't committing murders, aren't encountering police in violent situations, and aren't getting arrested or killed. People from other groups (and basically just males from age 15-40 without stable employment or families) are doing all of those bad things, and are getting arrested and killed.



The 72% total groups hispanics with whites. I personally think all these categories are a stupid antiquated dead-end, but "white" americans make up 60% of the country, not 72%.

Much of the reasons that age group is getting killed is economic, which often is tied directly back into race. Educational opportunities for blacks are well below that of whites. The schools for predominately white, urban kids get the money and support. Black kids and rural kids have fewer computers to work with, fewer teachers wanting to teach there etc.

Rather than disagreeing with my statistics, what do YOU think should be done to alleviate this problem and eventually solve it?

Please be somewhat specific.

[jazzdelmar]

It may still be due to conflation but, if so, the debate was about disrespecting the flag very early on. This error was never corrected. For many people on the outside this was about disrespecting the flag, because his protest happened during the anthem, and it seems revisionist to suggest it was never about that. I don’t think his protest would have been offensive to so many if it happened at another time during pregame (any time but the anthem, essentially). This may be another example of persons talking past each other, or worse— people trying to take control of the narrative with an alternate reality.

That’s exactly my point. Once the furor began there was no one on the Kap side with enough sense to articulate what the purpose of the demonstration was. Tommie Smith and Juan Carlos were different. They were protesting America through the flag, imo. Though oddly they carried small flags. Kap handled it poorly it might have played out differently. But Brees — who never served — was wrong wrapping himself in the flag and praising his grandfather. Geez.

[LongIslandZagFan]

Police contact by Demographic Characteristics:
Whites (23%) were more likely than blacks (20%) or Hispanics (17%) to have contact with police. Police were equally likely to initiate contact with blacks and whites (11% each) but were less likely to initiate contact with Hispanics (9%). Also, police were more likely to initiate contact with males (12%) than with females (9%), while females (11%) were more likely to initiate contact with police than males (10%).

Here is what this stat leaves out. A comparison. Whites make up 60% of the population... Blacks make up 13%. Hispanic 18%.

[MDABE80]

JP correct. It was about the flag and somebody or some peoples shifted it to police beating up blacks/shooting blacks. Not it's shifted to equality. These shifts lead me to believe it can be whatever the BLM folks/ media wants it to be in any given situation. All these black athletes ( some white ones too) step into the arguments and really don't understand the shifting.
Kap will never be hired by a team for a couple of reasons, he's destructive and divisive in a team sport..........and when he had a good season or two, he lost his edge and is mediocre. Social issuess on a baskeball board? Can't be good outcome. Foo? or somewhere else.?? Sorry but someone had to say it.... probably best to move this!

[jazzdelmar]

It may still be due to conflation but, if so, the debate was about disrespecting the flag very early on. This error was never corrected. For many people on the outside this was about disrespecting the flag, because his protest happened during the anthem, and it seems revisionist to suggest it was never about that. I don’t think his protest would have been offensive to so many if it happened at another time during pregame (any time but the anthem, essentially). This may be another example of persons talking past each other, or worse— people trying to take control of the narrative with an alternate reality.

Don’t you think it would have been more disrespectful if the players fled to the locker room or tunnel right before the anthem? They did stay, many stood, some kneeled. I don’t think there’s a comparable point in the game where public attention — especially tv — is as laser focused as the anthem.