Roth, Zags plan for season of uncertainty

[Zagceo]

I appreciate your wish to stick with science. But, it’s just that, a wish. Everything is influenced by politics. Science and scientists are not immune. Scientists without bias are as rare as any other segment of the population. In addition, the results obtained by scientists are subject to being interpreted by people with political bias as well. Just the way it is.

100%

[DZ]

100%

Is 100% wrong.

Hard sciences are 100% apolitical.

The answers they arrive at often upset certain political factions, who thus turn around and accuse them of being political.

They publish their methods and findings, it is reviewed by peers, who poke holes (or not) in findings.

Once you reject scientific findings that are inconvenient to your politics, you've rejected truth. Once truth is rejected, you're saying that truth has a political bias. We are headed away from democracy and self-rule. Remarkably, that doesn't bother some people who are ready to give democracy up if it means they can avoid undesired results. We've seen it happening.

[bballbeachbum]

Is 100% wrong.

Hard sciences are 100% apolitical.

The answers they arrive at often upset certain political factions, who thus turn around and accuse them of being political.

They publish their methods and findings, it is reviewed by peers, who poke holes (or not) in findings.

Once you reject scientific findings that are inconvenient to your politics, you've rejected truth. Once truth is rejected, you're saying that truth has a political bias. We are headed away from democracy and self-rule. Remarkably, that doesn't bother some people who are ready to give democracy up if it means they can avoid undesired results. We've seen it happening.

100%

[DZ]

It is important to remember that the entire point of propaganda is not to get a person to believe any one story or side. The point of propaganda is to flood people with "differing sides" and "differing stories" so much so that people give up on the idea that an objective truth exists. The point is to convince people that everything is impacted by political motivations, everyone has an angle, thus there is no such thing as "truth," so it's a waste of time to bother trying to establish the truth. Better to tell the story as it benefits one's predetermined motivation.

That's not my summation, it's a paraphrase of a quote that goes back 50 years. An echo chamber exists in every political niche or corner, one can hear what they need to hear from any point of view. But just bc these echo chambers exist doesn't mean that truth doesn't exist.

There are readily established truths, objective analysis. To discard scientific findings that are inconvenient and then label the science as political is to give up on truth as a social baseline and portends the end of self-government. Some are fine with that.

[LTownZag]

It is important to remember that the entire point of propaganda is not to get a person to believe any one story or side. The point of propaganda is to flood people with "differing sides" and "differing stories" so much so that people give up on the idea that an objective truth exists. The point is to convince people that everything is impacted by political motivations, everyone has an angle, thus there is no such thing as "truth," so it's a waste of time to bother trying to establish the truth. Better to tell the story as it benefits one's predetermined motivation.

That's not my summation, it's a paraphrase of a quote that goes back 50 years. An echo chamber exists in every political niche or corner, one can hear what they need to hear from any point of view. But just bc these echo chambers exist doesn't mean that truth doesn't exist.

There are readily established truths, objective analysis. To discard scientific findings that are inconvenient and then label the science as political is to give up on truth as a social baseline and portends the end of self-government. Some are fine with that.

It's sunday morning so I'll say it.


Amen.


Without an agreed on shared set of facts, or without even any agreed-on conceptual framework for what kind of evidence and knowledge would in abstract produce shared facts, how will we ever hope to share deeper values and have meaningful conversation?

[hockeyzag]

It's sunday morning so I'll say it.


Amen.


Without an agreed on shared set of facts, or without even any agreed-on conceptual framework for what kind of evidence and knowledge would in abstract produce shared facts, how will we ever hope to share deeper values and have meaningful conversation?

I’m sorry but I just couldn’t help myself, this is a downright hilarious thing to say after a religious declaration of affirmation.

[LTownZag]

I’m sorry but I just couldn’t help myself, this is a downright hilarious thing to say after a religious declaration of affirmation.

That’s true. :-)

I’m not even religious, though I miss and appreciate lots of aspects of my Protestant childhood.
I just like the “amen” as a succinct way to say “well done, i second that point and I’m encouraged to have heard it said”.

[hockeyzag]

That’s true. :-)

I’m not even religious, though I miss and appreciate lots of aspects of my Protestant childhood.
I just like the “amen” as a succinct way to say “well done, i second that point and I’m encouraged to have heard it said”.

Agreed, it works well

[kitzbuel]

No I don't realize that. China had the only test and CDC bought it.

They WH didn't disband it. It was moved out of the WH. The Zeimer was offered another job but declined.

I suppose you have some reliable sources for your statements. You and/por Kitz produce something. If Ive got this wrong, I
ll retract but nothing I've read portrays your stories.

Sorry, been at the beach on vacation so responding belatedly.

The FDA description of the test kit includes genetic components that could only be developed once the genetics of the virus were established. This could only happen once the virus existed and was sequenced.

The CDC 2019-nCoV Real-Time RT-PCR Diagnostic Panel includes the following materials or other authorized materials:
• 2019-nCoV_N1 and 2019-nCoV_N2 vials containing primers and probes that target the nucleocapsid (N) gene and are designed for specific detection of SARS-CoV-2...

https://www.fda.gov/media/134919/download

The test kits could not be created until the virus existed.

[caduceus]

I had to go back in the thread on this one, because everything is just so egregiously wrong, I couldn't leave it alone. No disrespect, but disinformation can kill. I hope dearly you can find more reputable sources for your information.

before the Vegas tournament I posted about my fear that the vegas tourney would be cancelled....I was scoffed at....glad we went though.....great time.....

I'm glad you had a great time, honestly as a fellow Zag fan. I didn't go. Some of my alum buds had parents with serious health risks, and we all decided it wasn't worth the risk to put them in jeopardy upon our return. That tournament was one of the very last to complete before all hell broke loose. One of the next CBB tournaments in the Northeast turned out to be a superspreading event that infected many, and killed people.

the lockdown was wrong headed....the vulnerable should have been asked to isolate.....what we did was just prolong the virus's course.....

I've mentioned previously in this thread that this perception is a VERY dangerous one, and should be shunned. You have just enough knowledge about this pandemic to be a danger to yourself and others.

people say they follow science until it doesn't agree with them....science tells us that there will always be virus's around , even after covid....science tells us that a virus runs its course, and it weakens....science tells us that the sickliest, and oldest will always be more susceptible to any disease...

Tell that to the polio victims or HIV victims. Viruses often don't weaken. We still have Chicken Pox and Hantavirus and Ebola in this world. The 1918 influenza killed far more 20 year olds than 80 year olds in its first wave. Your argument is wrong.

there is no vaccine for the common cold, another corona virus....I wouldn't bet that covid will have a completely effective vaccine ....many people get the flu after getting the flu shot...

This demonstrates your absolute lack of knowledge about viral disease. Coronaviruses make up about 10% of "colds." People get the flu despite flu shots because influenza mutates like rabbits breed, and scientists have to use their crystal ball to determine which variants will be the prominent one in the upcoming season when they make the vaccine. It's a gambler's bet, and they try their best. Most of the time, they're correct (saving tens of thousands of lives). But not always. Our current nCOV-19 doesn't mutate nearly as much, because it has an RNA spell checker that keeps it essentially unchanged over time. The more you know. If we get to an effective vaccine that effectively targets its spike protein (the one that lets the virus enter your cells), we are likely golden.

testing is showing more people have or had the virus because we are testing so many more.....the death rate however is low....

More dangerous rhetoric. If you increase testing, and the rate of positivity is increasing, then your argument is baloney. If hospitalizations and deaths increase, then your argument is baloney. Furthermore, deaths lag new cases by almost a month (last I heard was 26 days, give or take a few days). It takes 3-10 days to feel sick, then another week or so to be hospitalized, then another week or so to kick the bucket. THEN another week to be recorded into some state database. The really scary thing is that some states are so backlogged on completing testing (Arizona has a two week! backlog), that we're not even getting a picture of what's happening on the ground realtime. That's absolutely terrifying!

people want 100% safety and the truth is there is no such thing....

Sure. I could fall in a manhole tomorrow, or choke on a bolt left in my salad mix. That doesn't mean we don't ensure that we have strong public measures to best prevent those kinds of incidents.

[Bogozags]

Coronavirus updates: Fauci optimistic of vaccine by year's end...

I wonder just how long it would take to mass-produce the vaccine and make it available everywhere...also, wondering also what the cost of said vaccine be...I would imagine that insurance companies would be glad to cover the cost if one compares the cost of the vaccine to medical costs os staying in the hospital for 1-2 weeks...

[willandi]

Coronavirus updates: Fauci optimistic of vaccine by year's end...

I wonder just how long it would take to mass-produce the vaccine and make it available everywhere...also, wondering also what the cost of said vaccine be...I would imagine that insurance companies would be glad to cover the cost if one compares the cost of the vaccine to medical costs os staying in the hospital for 1-2 weeks...

I read that the Remdesvir (sp ?) will be available, in this country, will be available for a base cost of just under $2500 for a course of treatment. In India, a generic will be available for $69.

I still believe that a true lock down for 6 weeks, with an adequate payout to ALL workers, will stop the virus almost completely.

[MDABE80]

Will....correct. I don't like the drug for stopping infection rates. It does shorten hospitalizations by 30%.....that's what the FDA thinks as does Fauci.

It's good but falls short of what we need. I do think our own infection rates are in our own hands....at least now. Masks, distance, etc.<_----been saying this for over 90 days.
Just DO IT!

[Bogozags]

Will....correct. I don't like the drug for stopping infection rates. It does shorten hospitalizations by 30%.....that's what the FDA thinks as does Fauci.

It's good but falls short of what we need. I do think our own infection rates are in our own hands....at least now. Masks, distance, etc.<_----been saying this for over 90 days.
Just DO IT!

Doc,

Please help me understand why the administration will not make wearing masks/facial coverings when in public mandatory. I listened to the VP this PM and he tape-danced around the issue???

[MDABE80]

Bogo my friend...I have no idea. It's not leading by example . Trump and crew say they are tested daily and don't need masks. Still, to me, it would be such a small gesture and an important one. He's gonna need everything he's got to be reelected because a bunch of little things the media points out. Some are turned into a big deal when there should be a topic of discussion. Im masking up all the time. It's not a big deal but it does show respect and caring for others. PLUS I'd never wish this on anyone.
As for Trump and crew? show some good will dammit even if you don't have the disease and are negative every morning you are tested. Sorry Bogo, it irritates me.