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  • #31
    Originally posted by TexasZagFan View Post
    Rather than issue another snarky comment, I'm going for a 5 mile walk in 92 degree weather, and I'm not going to wear a mask...though I bought one last night that bears a striking resemblance to my avatar.

    This thread, like others, is really pissing me off...if you don't like one person's stance, then it's a straight shot to personal attacks. Eff that. Childish to say "I'll donate xxx to your favorite charity", this is a freaking internet forum.
    Honest question: Why are you more bothered by my offer to give my money to charity if MDABE80 either backs up his (false) claim or if he tells the truth, than you are apparently bothered by his double down spreading a conspiratorial lie while he insults Gonzdb8 in the process? I put my personal money on the line, in public, to display my genuine commitment to either outcome as the facts support.

    I offered him a large incentive if he could give evidence of his claim. He couldn't.

    I offered him a smaller incentive if he would simply do the upstanding thing and acknowledge his lie, which he had repeated without evidence while insulting someone in the process.

    I couldn't convince him to do either of the above, but thought a public airing of evidence either way, with proceeds to charity, might be preferable to ignoring more disinformation. I'm fascinated by the psychology leading to your conclusion that the personal attack was against MDABE80 by me, and a reaction wherein my response to MDABE80 is what's "really pissing you off". It certainly isn't my intent to personally attack someone or piss you off.
    Last edited by LTownZag; 06-28-2020, 08:47 AM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by tinfoilzag View Post
      Even if the metrics being used for measuring Covid-19's impact were correct (which they aren't) it's all just academic.

      A cornerstone of the american way is that you are your own sovereign and are allowed to decide how much risk you take as long as it doesn't damage others. If you want to free climb sheer cliffs, or wrestle tigers, or drink yourself to death; you can decide your own risk appetite. If it kills you, fine, as long as you only hurt yourself.

      The problem with a pandemic, is that it requires everyone to have the same risk appetite as an individual's choices are seen as a threat to the group. This doesn't work for American's because of the loss of individual liberty.

      American's are fine with being told what not to do and they are even ok with being asked to do something but they won't be told what to do. It's goes back to the constitution and bill of rights not saying what liberties are given but what liberties the government can't take away.

      The pandemic has finally given officials what they have always dreamed of: the ability to change behavior through force. They won't want to give it up. They will keep telling everyone to wait just one more month for things to get better and if you are against it they will say you hate science and want to kill people. The will use the right reason to do the wrong thing.

      I don't think there will be a season because it is not in the interest of our governor and that's the only thing that matters for this poll.
      It is not a cornerstone of the American way to be your own sovereign. Try dumping your business waste in a river without a permit and see how fast your sovereignty runs out. The American way is compromising our outright freedom to keep from hurting others. It is a balance.

      Officials haven't "dreamed of" this kind of power, that's a myth and a very hurtful one. Your pronouncement about your freedoms are oblivious to the risk you're running. EVEN if we say that you only get yourself sick, you could easily end up in the ICU. "My choice" you say? Yes, your choice to risk the lives of people who then have to save yours, such as my family members. You also take up resources in those hospitals that are not at all unlimited, ask NYC, Houston, Montgomery.

      Then we get into the fact that your demand to walk around mask free and eat at restaurants, carry on business, etc. is behavior likely to spread it more to people who also get sick, and then we're back in the hospital.

      Disasters have always meant temporary crackdowns on freedom. Try entering an area just hit by a hurricane, or earthquake. Your freedom to assemble where you want will run right up against barriers keeping you out.

      We try to maximize freedom by balancing it with keeping others free to live safely. You can't have 6 beers and drive home even though the "risk is mine," it also infringes on others. If you try to use your private property for business purposes, it gets shut down bc it drags down property values around you. It's a balance. You have to build to fire code to protect others, pay a minum wage to employees … etc. etc. society balances personal freedoms with others freedom. Where that balance falls moves in accord with how we govern ourselves.

      Nothing wrong with a libertarian bent. But there's lots wrong with the assumption that it's the purest, best, way to live. It can be extremely harmful to others, and often people care too little
      Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
      Mark Twain.

      Comment


      • #33
        I said it before and I'll say it again.

        Lock down, everybody and every thing for 6 weeks. Only essentials. Health care, grocery and pharmacy to put you online or phone orders in the trunk. Truck drivers to deliver to food and prescripts to those places, Skeletal staff for utilities, for prescription delivery through the mail, and Law Enforcement to pick up those idiots that just refuse to obey. They will serve the 6 weeks (or until they are up) in jail, extended to 14 days after the lock down is over.
        Every worker gets $5000, including landlords and bosses, but no corporations or companies. NO RENT for 2 months, but no payments to the banks by the landlords for two months. Utilities, cable tv, cell phone, credit cards etc get paid.
        When the 6 weeks are up, people will burst out ready to spend that money. The economy will rebound.

        We lose this season of MLB, Nascar etc, but we get ALL the college sports, the NFL and all fall, winter and spring sports. The NBA can go ahead because of their bubble/campus plan.
        All tests go to health care, people that are transported and those they live with. Their quarantine lasts until they are proven clean.
        Not even a smile? What's your problem!

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by DZ View Post
          It is not a cornerstone of the American way to be your own sovereign. Try dumping your business waste in a river without a permit and see how fast your sovereignty runs out. The American way is compromising our outright freedom to keep from hurting others. It is a balance.

          Officials haven't "dreamed of" this kind of power, that's a myth and a very hurtful one. Your pronouncement about your freedoms are oblivious to the risk you're running. EVEN if we say that you only get yourself sick, you could easily end up in the ICU. "My choice" you say? Yes, your choice to risk the lives of people who then have to save yours, such as my family members. You also take up resources in those hospitals that are not at all unlimited, ask NYC, Houston, Montgomery.

          Then we get into the fact that your demand to walk around mask free and eat at restaurants, carry on business, etc. is behavior likely to spread it more to people who also get sick, and then we're back in the hospital.

          Disasters have always meant temporary crackdowns on freedom. Try entering an area just hit by a hurricane, or earthquake. Your freedom to assemble where you want will run right up against barriers keeping you out.

          We try to maximize freedom by balancing it with keeping others free to live safely. You can't have 6 beers and drive home even though the "risk is mine," it also infringes on others. If you try to use your private property for business purposes, it gets shut down bc it drags down property values around you. It's a balance. You have to build to fire code to protect others, pay a minum wage to employees … etc. etc. society balances personal freedoms with others freedom. Where that balance falls moves in accord with how we govern ourselves.

          Nothing wrong with a libertarian bent. But there's lots wrong with the assumption that it's the purest, best, way to live. It can be extremely harmful to others, and often people care too little
          I'm not sure what you read but you're arguing some other post. What does taking on personal risk have to do with polluting a public river? I didn't say "my choice" to put others at risk anywhere. I never said anything about the purest, best way to live. No idea where minimum wage came from.

          Disasters mean "temporary" crackdowns on freedoms? Been to an airport lately? You can't fly domestically without government approved papers. FISA court is still around and it's been almost 20 years since 9/11.

          I did say that the problem with a pandemic is that it goes against many American's core beliefs. For quarantine to work, you need most onboard. You aren't going to get most onboard and I explained why. I also said that we are generally OK with people risking their own lives but not others in our society and then you made the same point a couple of times.

          Here's a proposal that could save us all.

          We are 3 months into lock down. Why not just pass a law making masks mandatory forever? it will save lives even after Covid-19 as it will protect those with weak immune systems and it's really not that much of an inconvenience. It will also help us deal with the next Pandemic which could be an existential threat. We could put location tacking with contract tracing in the masks and that would let us know who the spreaders are and we could not only stamp out Covid but most contagious diseases. Imagine getting rid of the flu or chicken pox! The idea would be that once a person is suspected to be contagious, they are forced to shelter in place until they could be escorted to quarantine and treated until deemed safe. It's probably the best way to preserve everyone's freedom from getting sick.
          Ihre Papiere bitte

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by tinfoilzag View Post
            I'm not sure what you read but you're arguing some other post. What does taking on personal risk have to do with polluting a public river? I didn't say "my choice" to put others at risk anywhere. I never said anything about the purest, best way to live. No idea where minimum wage came from.

            Disasters mean "temporary" crackdowns on freedoms? Been to an airport lately? You can't fly domestically without government approved papers. FISA court is still around and it's been almost 20 years since 9/11.

            I did say that the problem with a pandemic is that it goes against many American's core beliefs. For quarantine to work, you need most onboard. You aren't going to get most onboard and I explained why. I also said that we are generally OK with people risking their own lives but not others in our society and then you made the same point a couple of times.

            Here's a proposal that could save us all.

            We are 3 months into lock down. Why not just pass a law making masks mandatory forever? it will save lives even after Covid-19 as it will protect those with weak immune systems and it's really not that much of an inconvenience. It will also help us deal with the next Pandemic which could be an existential threat. We could put location tacking with contract tracing in the masks and that would let us know who the spreaders are and we could not only stamp out Covid but most contagious diseases. Imagine getting rid of the flu or chicken pox! The idea would be that once a person is suspected to be contagious, they are forced to shelter in place until they could be escorted to quarantine and treated until deemed safe. It's probably the best way to preserve everyone's freedom from getting sick.
            WE NEVER HAD A LOCKDOWN!
            Not even a smile? What's your problem!

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by willandi View Post
              WE NEVER HAD A LOCKDOWN!
              You keep confusing a lock down with martial law in all of your posts. What you keep calling for is a suspension of laws with military rule; that's martial law.
              Ihre Papiere bitte

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by tinfoilzag View Post
                You keep confusing a lock down with martial law in all of your posts. What you keep calling for is a suspension of laws with military rule; that's martial law.
                You keep confusing a lockdown with some states and some counties having an unenforced quarantine where people just did what they want with no repercussions.

                There was no lockdown.
                Not even a smile? What's your problem!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Dixie, I hope you're right. From my vantage point, it's hard to see.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by MDABE80 View Post
                    Dixie, I hope you're right. From my vantage point, it's hard to see.
                    Have a question for you, Abe...if our hospitals are maxing out over Covid, then why did Baylor Health just lay off over 1000 people (one of whom is my physician)? There's a dichotomy here I seem to be missing.

                    https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/he...9-fb5652a0b2c6

                    Thanks for asking, but I thoroughly enjoyed my walk last night...90 degrees, very comfortable. Dozens of people were out on the trail, maybe a third were wearing masks, which IMO is worse for them health-wise, because they're recycling their CO2. My wife can't wear a mask for more than a few minutes without getting lightheaded.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by TexasZagFan View Post
                      Have a question for you, Abe...if our hospitals are maxing out over Covid, then why did Baylor Health just lay off over 1000 people (one of whom is my physician)? There's a dichotomy here I seem to be missing.

                      https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/he...9-fb5652a0b2c6

                      Thanks for asking, but I thoroughly enjoyed my walk last night...90 degrees, very comfortable. Dozens of people were out on the trail, maybe a third were wearing masks, which IMO is worse for them health-wise, because they're recycling their CO2. My wife can't wear a mask for more than a few minutes without getting lightheaded.
                      I know you didn't ask me for my opinion, but the research I've done on this indicates our for profit health care system bears its share of responsibility

                      While the number of local COVID-19 cases has been lower than feared, the financial effects from the pandemic and the lockdown have been severe.

                      “We experienced a dramatic drop in patient volumes — between 50 and 90%, depending upon where they sought care,” Baylor CEO Jim Hinton told employees in a video message. The company’s first instinct was to protect workers, he said, so it pledged to keep paying everyone through May. But that won’t be sustained beyond the first week of June, despite an improvement in business in the past several weeks.
                      https://www.dallasnews.com/business/...rlough-others/
                      Last edited by bballbeachbum; 06-28-2020, 09:16 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TexasZagFan View Post
                        Have a question for you, Abe...if our hospitals are maxing out over Covid, then why did Baylor Health just lay off over 1000 people (one of whom is my physician)? There's a dichotomy here I seem to be missing.
                        Ooh, ohh, me, me. I can answer this one. Not everyone in a hospital deals with infectious disease. In fact, during normal times, a very, very small percentage do. Now that hospitals are getting OVERWHELMED with sick patients that have COVID-19, the busy people are the internists and ID (infectious dz) specialists, the ER docs, geriatricians, and the intensivists. Everybody else (surgeons, endocrinologists, psychiatrists, primary care, and so on) has virtually nothing to do or patients to see. And it's mainly because this virus is so dangerous that everybody else is staying the hell home, even if they have some other illness that might necessitate hospitalization.

                        Couple that with the fact that governments are halting non-urgent procedures because when the hospitals are so full with patients that they're practically falling out the windows, you have no room or resources or PPD to deal with the botox people. (I jest, because there are plenty of patients that need important procedures that are "non-urgent" aka elective. But if you don't have gowns and gloves or sanitizer or treatment rooms or available nurses or N95 masks or recovery rooms because they are filled with patients on ventilators, or anesthesiologists because they are too busy intubating patients in respiratory failure....welllllll). I didn't mention the loading docks filled with refrigerated trucks when they bring out the dead. Happened in NY, and probably will elsewhere.

                        When it's all hands on deck, you don't worry about what's going on in the galley (I know you're Army, not Navy, but I knew you'd get it).

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by willandi View Post
                          You keep confusing a lockdown with some states and some counties having an unenforced quarantine where people just did what they want with no repercussions.

                          There was no lockdown.
                          I see where your confusion is. When you say "unenforced quarantine", who do you think would enforce a national quarantine? We don't have a federal police force. We are a collection of states with most law enforcement coming at state and county levels.

                          An elected sheriff is the highest law enforcer in their county and has law enforcement powers exceeding that of any other state or federal officials.

                          If you wanted to force everyone to follow the same mandates nationwide, you would have to suspend the authority of state and local groups which would require enforcement to come from the only source that would have the capabilities to enforce these types of mandates, which would be the military. This action is called declaring martial law, not 'lockdown'.

                          The US does have a general lock down and the lock down protocols are coming from the states based on federal guidelines and specific state situations. It's not uniform but that's by design as every state is different.

                          The solution you keep repeating in your posts is not possible under our system (9th and 10th amendment).
                          Ihre Papiere bitte

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by tinfoilzag View Post
                            I see where your confusion is. When you say "unenforced quarantine", who do you think would enforce a national quarantine? We don't have a federal police force. We are a collection of states with most law enforcement coming at state and county levels.

                            An elected sheriff is the highest law enforcer in their county and has law enforcement powers exceeding that of any other state or federal officials.

                            If you wanted to force everyone to follow the same mandates nationwide, you would have to suspend the authority of state and local groups which would require enforcement to come from the only source that would have the capabilities to enforce these types of mandates, which would be the military. This action is called declaring martial law, not 'lockdown'.

                            The US does have a general lock down and the lock down protocols are coming from the states based on federal guidelines and specific state situations. It's not uniform but that's by design as every state is different.

                            The solution you keep repeating in your posts is not possible under our system (9th and 10th amendment).
                            I beg to differ on almost every level, but you won't change my mind and I won't change yours, so I will drop it.
                            Not even a smile? What's your problem!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by tinfoilzag View Post
                              I see where your confusion is. When you say "unenforced quarantine", who do you think would enforce a national quarantine? We don't have a federal police force. We are a collection of states with most law enforcement coming at state and county levels.

                              An elected sheriff is the highest law enforcer in their county and has law enforcement powers exceeding that of any other state or federal officials.

                              If you wanted to force everyone to follow the same mandates nationwide, you would have to suspend the authority of state and local groups which would require enforcement to come from the only source that would have the capabilities to enforce these types of mandates, which would be the military. This action is called declaring martial law, not 'lockdown'.

                              The US does have a general lock down and the lock down protocols are coming from the states based on federal guidelines and specific state situations. It's not uniform but that's by design as every state is different.

                              The solution you keep repeating in your posts is not possible under our system (9th and 10th amendment).
                              Look up the Supremacy clause.

                              The Sheriff is the highest law enforcement official in a county enforcing certain codified crimes. When it comes to enforcing federal law, federal enforcement takes priority of the sheriff's power.

                              Generally you are right in that the States generally care for the common welfare of the citizens.

                              But the Sheriff doesn't enforce FAA regulations at the airport, doesn't enforce immigration laws with respect to illegal immigration, doesn't enforce complex interstate crime under federal law done by the FBI, doesn't get in the way of the ATF, nor enforce DEA violations, or criminal pollution overseen by the EPA. If there was a declaration of a federal emergency, all law enforcement would be called upon to enforce federal law. The sheriff would serve alongside and co-equal to federal law enforcement.
                              Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
                              Mark Twain.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by caduceus View Post
                                Ooh, ohh, me, me. I can answer this one. Not everyone in a hospital deals with infectious disease. In fact, during normal times, a very, very small percentage do. Now that hospitals are getting OVERWHELMED with sick patients that have COVID-19, the busy people are the internists and ID (infectious dz) specialists, the ER docs, geriatricians, and the intensivists. Everybody else (surgeons, endocrinologists, psychiatrists, primary care, and so on) has virtually nothing to do or patients to see. And it's mainly because this virus is so dangerous that everybody else is staying the hell home, even if they have some other illness that might necessitate hospitalization.

                                Couple that with the fact that governments are halting non-urgent procedures because when the hospitals are so full with patients that they're practically falling out the windows, you have no room or resources or PPD to deal with the botox people. (I jest, because there are plenty of patients that need important procedures that are "non-urgent" aka elective. But if you don't have gowns and gloves or sanitizer or treatment rooms or available nurses or N95 masks or recovery rooms because they are filled with patients on ventilators, or anesthesiologists because they are too busy intubating patients in respiratory failure....welllllll). I didn't mention the loading docks filled with refrigerated trucks when they bring out the dead. Happened in NY, and probably will elsewhere.

                                When it's all hands on deck, you don't worry about what's going on in the galley (I know you're Army, not Navy, but I knew you'd get it).
                                Thanks to you and bum for your response. But what about New York, where the hospital ship was sent home due to lack of patients? Was it mismanagement, misplaced priorities?

                                I've had a little bit of experience in how to keep things running when the SHTF, and the Army taught me you're a dead man if you just stand around and do nothing. You may be a dead man if you're moving around, too, you just have a better chance at survival. There's little doubt in my mind that the sheer enormity of the situation stalled the decision makers.

                                The economic effects of this pandemic will be felt for years to come. O/T, I'm pulling my copy of Atlas Shrugged out of my bookcase. Say what you will about Ayn Rand, but she was great at outlining eventual consequences to what were seemingly minor events.

                                Comment

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